Is there any point combining both northern brewer hops and saaz

[wizurd1977]

Hi all,

Hope it's not a stupid question but basically i've got the above two hops and i wondered is there any point using them both in an ag brew along with vienna and pilsner malt?

I've been looking around at different recipes but can't see anyone mentioning these together which makes me think there is no point combining them.

Are they actually quite similar?

It's been suggested to me that i might just try a SMASH, which i can do otherwise.

I was going to be fermenting with mangrove jacks at ale temps as well in case that makes a difference.

Thanks

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's more of a cultural thing - Northern Brewer was one of the first modern varieties with higher alpha acids bred in the UK, Saaz is a very old landrace in Bohemia. So the Czechs tend to use Saaz because that's their local thing, British recipes in the 1930s-50 tended to use NB but it's been replaced by more modern varieties with higher alpha and better disease resistance.

But it's very normal for the Belgians to use a mix of classic Central European and obsolete British hops - and in fact the Germans like NB's grandmother Brewer's Gold for helles because of its soft bittering.

Use the NB mostly for bittering, Saaz later on - it's a pretty classic combination for anything Trappist, saisony etc. Or will work in standardish European ales - think along the lines of altbier, Taras Boulba, that kind of thing.

 

[terrym]

Why not brew two separate beers and use Saaz in one and NB in the other?
At least that way you will find out what each hop contributes.
More on your hops here
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/homebrew_beer_hopshttp://www.onebeer.net/hopschart.html

 

[MickDundee]

A lot of the Greg Hughes lager recipes use NB for bittering and more floral “lager” hops late in the boil.

 

[wizurd1977]

Thanks for the replies. There's some really good detail there as well. I didn't realise that Anchor Steam Beer uses NB hops primarily. Ok so that means either i'll do two separate brews or use the NB as bittering and Saaz more for the aromatic. If i can get more grain then two separate may work best.

Because i'm making my brew up as i go along i'm also trying to figure out what kind of IBU i want. Ideally nothing massively bitter (i guess around 50 ish).

 

[terrym]

Th

Because i'm making my brew up as i go along i'm also trying to figure out what kind of IBU i want. Ideally nothing massively bitter (i guess around 50 ish).

This might help
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/05/07/beer-styles-ibu-chart-2017-update/

 

[wizurd1977]

thanks again Terry :-)

Probably looking at more like 20 - 30 then at most.

 

[wizurd1977]

So i'm thinking that i'll put 30g of NB in at the beginning of the boil, the boil being 60 mins. The NB i have is 7AA.

Then i'll put in 15g of Saaz (4.4 AA) with 30 mins of the boil remaining and then the same amount with 20 mins of the boil remaining.

Both hops are in pellet form. I've had a quite look at the brewers friend recipe tool and that gives me an IBU of 25.27. Do you think i should be putting the Saaz in later nearer the end of the boil in order to avoid boiling out the aromatics added by the Saaz or does that not happen?

Does the IBU provided by brewers friend seem about right? O and my recipe is for 21L into the FV at the end of the boil.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Do a google for brewmate its a recipe calculator and its free

 

[wizurd1977]

thanks

 

[cushyno]

Depends on the style you're trying to achieve. My preference would be butter with NB, Saaz At 10mins, and again at 5 or 2 mins. I've just used NB and Saaz in ab experimental split batch. Also hoping this works out well.

 

[wizurd1977]

Thanks Cushyno - style wise i don't really have a goal. Obviously with the malt its lager ish but then fermenting at ale temps and looking for more "flavour" than a lager. So putting the Saaz in that late will still get the aroma from the Saaz? actually would it get more?

 

[Rodcx500z]

I have one i am going to bottle in the morning, hops were fuggles early for bittering and sazz for aroma

 

[wizurd1977]

be interested to see how yours turns out Rod. I'm waiting on a fv at the moment so that i can keep it in the brew fridge i've setup. Hopefully get my brew done next week sometime.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I will post when its carbed and ready

 

[cushyno]

Thanks Cushyno - style wise i don't really have a goal. Obviously with the malt its lager ish but then fermenting at ale temps and looking for more "flavour" than a lager. So putting the Saaz in that late will still get the aroma from the Saaz? actually would it get more?

I am not really up on the science of it, but this is my understanding. You can get all of the bittering OR all of the taste and aroma from hops, but you can't get both from one addition. A bittering addition of hops need to be in the wort for a long time to extract all the alpha acids that provide bittering. Somehow the act of boiling does what's called 'isomerisation' that dissolves the bittering agents into the wort, however it also boils off the aroma oils. If you hop the wort and let it stand for any period at less than 80degC the aroma oils will leach into the wort and not get boiled off. Boiling hops for a short time will still give you lots of aroma/flavour and also a little bittering. I believe that any hops added in the last 20 minutes of the boil will be detectable as flavour, with the later additions contributing more to aroma.

A late hop is called an aroma hop because it adds lots of aroma, but also contributes flavour. Much of what you think you taste comes from your sense of smell as well, which is why food doesn't taste as good if you have blocked sinuses.

Some American IPA's and NEIPA's use barely any bittering hops and rely heavily on a dry hop to get a big punch of aroma and flavour. However, because the aroma and flavour were added after boiling they start to fade after a couple of months.

As I say, I don't understand the science, but tend to follow the rules.

 

[wizurd1977]

Thanks again cushyno, that all makes sense to me and it's good to know. I'm definitely going to make sure that i'm putting the Saaz in late then to get a good flavour from it. Think i'll move it later to 20 and 10 mins left.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks Cushyno - style wise i don't really have a goal. Obviously with the malt its lager ish but then fermenting at ale temps and looking for more "flavour" than a lager. So putting the Saaz in that late will still get the aroma from the Saaz? actually would it get more?

A lot of Belgian ales use pilsner malt, to them it's just their standard cheap pale malt, and then they cover it up with lots of speciality malts and/or characterful yeast. See eg de Ranke XX - 100% Pilsner, 65IBU of Belgian Brewer's Gold cones, a single addition of Belgian Mittelfruh cones, "a Fermentis dry yeast".

+1 on adding the Saaz later, say at 5-10 minutes - and some as whirlpool/dry hop wouldn't go amiss if you're going for something like a bitter.