IPA and APA

[Ceejay]

This topic has been split from the head retention topic to avoid hijacking the original post. This is a discussion as per title really, note I've omitted AIPA :lol: Vossy1

As for AIPA's don't get me started....there's no such thing...grrrr, did the USA ever export to the troops in India...no!
IPA's should be bloody protected by the EU, perhaps we need a new class in the U.K for EPA's starting sub 5%, in the US they can have EAPA's.

English hops, English Malt = IPA...and those who use crystal* to colour instead of extended boiling times ....you know better :lol:
* though I concede coloured malts may have been used, but not for colouring purposes.

This is an interesting point. The BJCP guidelines clearly differentiate between American IPA and English IPA. I know this ignores all kinds of history, but until very recently, the American craft brewers have been brewing their IPAs much closer in style to a historic IPA than UK brewers have, albeit with US hops. Mitch Steele's IPA book actually cites the fact that many English & Scottish IPA brewers in the last 1800's actually imported hops from the US, in times of shortage.

I like the differentiation, because I know what I'm getting with either style. What I actually object to more than anything, is beers that call themselves an "IPA" and are little more than an Ordinary Bitter. One very famous East Anglian brand sticks out more than most.

I totally agree with you on the crystal malt thing - use them for flavour rather than colour. And in a "proper" IPA, you don't need it at all. Historic IPAs tended to use very pale malt and that's it. They were very bitter, strong in ABV, dry and champagne like.

 

[Vossy1]

I've seen a barmaid turn an entire bottle of Worthingtons White Shield into a beery water feature by dumping the whole thing into an activator glass :lol:

:lol: Time for an admission......I did that last week with a Chimay Blue ...the shame.

Apologies for the thread hijack, but this is an interesting point.

I recently spoke to Shane at the Cheshire Brew House and he told me the Saltaire Brewery ran a campaign for protected status for the IPA but ditched it for lack of support. I think a lot of the reason for us moving away from the traditional styles is direction from conglomerates, taxation and more importantly a slower revival in Micro and Craft breweries, though that situation is well and truly reversed now...thank god. The importation of hop I see as less of a problem for historic IPA's as I would imagine most of them were exported for growth from...yep...the U.K ...though naturally I doth my cap to the fact that soil and climate can make the same hop a very different plant. I take nothing away from the US EAPA :lol: a lot of them are superb, and for my money second only to IPA's for me, in fact from a taste pov I prefer their variety but then heritage kicks in and says bugger off to second place :lol:

 

[Ceejay]

Haha! We've all done it. I stupidly watched this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdHJSdMvX7I

then tried to recreate it in a pub in Exeter. The barman's face as I emptied a whole bottle of Erdinger over his nice clean bar was a treat!

Anyhoo, IPA eh?

I continue to use the term AIPA, because I guess my brewing knowledge stems from a lot of American literature and I kind of brew based on the BJCP guidelines.

It does throw up a very interesting/worrying naming convention in the craft & home brewing world. That is the term "India". :evil:

It would appear that the suffix "India" has come to mean "a beer with a metric shedload of hop character". Take a look at the following:

American India Pale Ale
India Brown Ale
India Red Ale
Belgian IPA
Black India Pale Ale (don't get me started on that! - I have the same issue with that as you do with AIPA!)
"Session" IPA

These are all actually beer styles that people are campaigning to be added to the BJCP style list. So, I think that it's not necessarily the AIPA that we should look at, it's the whole "India" suffix which is the problem.

Then, what do we use instead? :hmm:

 

[Vossy1]

Soap box time, all meant in good humour.

Take a look at the following:
American India Pale Ale
India Brown Ale
India Red Ale
Belgian IPA
Black India Pale Ale (don't get me started on that! - I have the same issue with that as you do with AIPA!)

You had to, didn't you :nono: ...that's done it :lol: I don't keep track of the guidelines as I brew to my own taste but I gotta say they're running riot looking at that lot...what a load of ********...as if it doesn't rile me enough they're even taking on Belgium...get a grip over there :nah: !....might be one step to far...home of the EU and all that :pray: :P

It would appear that the suffix "India" has come to mean "a beer with a metric shedload of hop character". Take a look at the following:

Not like our colloquial cousins to take something and twist it on it's head is it, weights and measures anyone :P

Then, what do we use instead?

To me, any pale beyond a certain strength should be a strong pale, and certainly not using the term India willy nilly...ffs we'll have an Indian mild next because someone showed a 2.7% a bale of hops :lol: Another option is to widen the definition of other styles to include higher gravities/AA units....or might that dilute the style......like it's doing with India.

I'm not sure what the answer is but applying India to anything you want to throw at it is simply not on...have they no respect, imagination or pride
If it we're me and I'd created the modern superb range of APA's, like the Americans have, I'd want it to have it's own name, not nick someone elses historically entrenched and proven one....it's ours..get your own.

It appears to me that while we slumbered into coma accepting the drivel the corporate masses threw at us, the yanks (not meant in a derogatory fashion) were quietly stealing a term, can't blame them really, but like that band said about the aborigines, "it belongs to them lets give it back".

 

[Ceejay]

^Brilliant :clap: (I actually agree, BTW)

I'll let someone else have a go now, whilst I decide what hops to put in my next brew - a Belgian India Dark Mild.

*knock knock*
"Oh, Hi Vossy, what brings you...."
*THWACK, CRUNCH*

:lol:

 

[graysalchemy]

Someone pointed this out to me earlier, but historically the american hops were used only for bittering and not aroma, which is a blindingly obvious difference between historical IPA's and an APA in itself. Secondly the citrusy american hops which we associate with APA's (but obviously not compulsory in the style) were not developed until the late 1960's so probably bare no resemblance to american hops of the 19 century, which as Vossy says were most likely english or european derivatives anyway. :grin: :grin:

Oh and don't get me started on 'Black' IPA/APA/AIPA. American Black Ale surely. :wha: :wha:

Finally personally I don't think anything can be called an India Pale Ale unless it has passed through the Sargasso Sea, crossed the equator rounded the Cape taken 10 months in a sailing ship to get to India. :twisted:

 

[Vossy1]

I'll let someone else have a go now, whilst I decide what hops to put in my next brew - a Belgian India Dark Mild.
*knock knock*
"Oh, Hi Vossy, what brings you...."
*THWACK, CRUNCH*
:lol:

:nah:
Sorry G, too busy to read...busy formulating an India Hefe..better get it in before 'they' do :nah: :rofl:

Finally personally I don't think anything can be called an India Pale Ale unless it has passed through the Sargasso Sea, crossed the equator rounded the Cape taken 10 months in a sailing ship to get to India.

:lol: That's why it's called in the 'style'.
Back to the IH ...how about an India Espresso....oh my

 

[graysalchemy]

That's why it's called in the 'style'.

But how many do call it that :lol: :lol:

Sorry G, too busy to read...busy formulating an India Hefe..better get it in before 'they' do

Don't know what has shocked me more the name India Hefe or the fact that you are formulating one :lol: :lol:

TST is looming :whistle: :whistle:

 

[calumscott]

Oh and don't get me started on 'Black' IPA/APA/AIPA. American Black Ale surely.

Well...

If one were to mash an IPA grain bill (and I mean to all intents and purposes a proper English one) with the intent of hopping with proper old school English IPA hops but adding liquor in which has been cold-steeped a pile of black malt, would that not be a black IPA?

The dark malt having not been mashed will contribute as little as possible to the malt flavour profile, only the colour. The correct alternative to a few drops of black food die...

Surely an American Black Ale would require the black malt to be mashed in with the bulk of the grain bill?

:whistle:

 

[graysalchemy]

No because you are describings its colour as Black and pale which is contradictory. The fact that yo have cold steeped the black malt makes no difference it is still part of the grain bill.

And

It has never passed through the Sargasso Sea, crossed the equator rounded the Cape taken 10 months in a sailing ship to get to India.

Climbs off soap box.

 

[calumscott]

It has never passed through the Sargasso Sea, crossed the equator rounded the Cape taken 10 months in a sailing ship to get to India.

Neither has anything sold in this country as IPA...

Doesn't the Pale bit now just relate to the fact that it was made with pale ale malt (of some variety) nowadays?

Sorry, I'm just being an **** for the sake of it...

 

[graysalchemy]

Neither has anything sold in this country as IPA...

Thats my point C I was not just venting my Wrath at homebrewers but commercial brewers and their accountants as well who dumb down a wonderful historic style to fit demographics and fiscal constraints.

Doesn't the Pale bit now just relate to the fact that it was made with pale ale malt (of some variety) nowadays?

Again see above. :lol: :lol:

 

[Vossy1]

No because you are describings its colour as Black and pale which is contradictory

Another bloody new category....Indian Zebra Ale...bah bloody humbug...ooh there's another :lol:
We'll have these BJCP guidelines whipped into shape by the end of the night and we haven't even had a drink yet :rofl:

 

[calumscott]

BJCP is an American organisation isn't it?

 

[graysalchemy]

BJCP is an American organisation isn't it?

And there lies the problem.

I rest my case M'lord.

 

[calumscott]

BJCP is an American organisation isn't it?

And there lies the problem.

I rest my case M'lord.

Surely there is a case for a British classification/judging standard? It's not like we don't have beer here... :wha:

 

[graysalchemy]

Another bloody new category....Indian Zebra Ale...bah bloody humbug...ooh there's another :lol:

No you are just being silly JP :lol: :lol:

We'll have these BJCP guidelines whipped into shape by the end of the night and we haven't even had a drink yet

No they should just get banned from use they have no relevance to British Brewing (I would like to say english but it is probably not politically correct especially with a Scot in the discussion ) :whistle: :whistle:

I think there is one somewhere I think the ngwbj have a very small one and CAMRA have one but they don't actually list Pale ales let alone IPA. :evil:

 

[Vossy1]

I would like to see a central body (sounds like the EU :shock: ) which 'collates' not 'adapts/nicks' styles from different countries, and whilst the EU is a good thing in many ways, I wouldn't like them to get too involved, though protection of 'origin' would be a good thing. I do realise that could lead to a dictionary of definition style wise, and trouble inter country judging, but in truth and practise, only the hosting countries majority styles would be in competition, along with majority favoured external styles.

No you are just being silly JP

:lol: yep, thought I'd join in as there don't seem to be many restrictions that the term India can be used for

 

[calumscott]

I wouldn't trust CAMRA to do it...

The CAMRA Beer Judging Style Guide
--- ----- ---- ------- ----- -----

Listed below are the categories of beer acceptable for show:

Category 1: Real Ale - Real Ales as defined by us.

Page 1/1

 

[Vossy1]

We are the law, prepare to be sentenced