How sterile is our equipment?

[Chippy_Tea]

I have read on more than one occasion members posting that if your FV is scratched it could lead to your brew getting infected, i have always wondered how this would happen if you use a steriliser like Milton (which i use) and make sure it contacts every part of the FV a couple of times in the 15 minute contact time required for it to do its thing.

When you take the juice cartons from the fridge you don't (well i don't) sterilise the edge of the carton where you cut it or if it is a bottle the top edge of the neck, should we be more thorough?

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[Tau]

When you take the juice cartons from the fridge you don't (well i don't) sterilise the edge of the carton where you cut it or if it is a bottle the top edge of the neck, should we be more thorough?

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I get concerned about this, but this is why I add juices to the recently dissolved sugar so temp's around 90c hopefully most get killed in the big temp' differential from fridge cold to almost boiling.

I been getting lazy when taking samples for hydrometer readings and just tipping the sample out of the dj, the other day, thought better wipe the lip of dj with solution before taking.

 

[MyQul]

Bacteria can hide in scratches. Then can form a biofilm when their hidden in those scratches which they hide underneath so your sanitising fluid doesnt effect them. Then they just regrow. You need to clean the FV thereby removing the biofilm and some of the bateria
Having said that my FV's are scratched to hell because I just stack them one inside the other. On my last but one brew I forgot to sanitise the FV altogether and the brew is fine.

 

[Tau]

There is a fair degree of luck, I'm pretty sure bleach sterilsing wasn't used for thousands of years in wine, cider and beer making. More recently last cent' or so they used to use malt vinegar to clean, not sure if this was used on fermenting vessels.

 

[MyQul]

There is a fair degree of luck, I'm pretty sure bleach sterilsing wasn't used for thousands of years in wine, cider and beer making. More recently last cent' or so they used to use malt vinegar to clean, not sure if this was used on fermenting vessels.

Absolutely. But what we drink today and what they drunk hundreds if not thousands of years ago as beer and wine) would have been very different. Some of the beer styles we call sour would have been their 'normal' beer. As the wild yeast that we use purposely to sour our beers would have just gotten into their beers anyway

 

[Pfeffer]

First of all, it will not be sterile. Even the best cleaners will not sterilize a whole FV, you might kill germs that are in there.. but the second you empty it, fresh air gets in and it's not longer sterile. So let's call it sanitizing from here.

Although "micro" scratches can harbour pathogens, you are still unlikely to infect a brew with it if you properly sanitize it. Why? In most cases the sanitizer will also reach those places (quality detergents are designed to do exactly that). What's worse are regular scratches that will simply hold debris. You can not sanitize mud.

People prefer stainless steel over plastic, but reality is that stainless under a microscope looks like a alien nuclaer waste land with craters and canyons. And guess what? It also scratches.

Best would be to use copper as it has bactericidal proporties.

So in short;

Stainless is superior over plastic as it's harder to scratch, but both are perfectly fine if you handle your equipment normally.

Additionally, normal boiling will NOT sterilize anything. You will need a pressure cooker if you want to reach the 121c that is required to kill spores.

To properly sanitize equipment just make sure you follow the directions carefully; don't use too much detergent as this will sometimes make a detergent less effective. Also make sure to follow the exposure times; these are minimum times not recommended times.

 

[Tau]

First of all, it will not be sterile. Even the best cleaners will not sterilize a whole FV, you might kill germs that are in there.. but the second you empty it, fresh air gets in and it's not longer sterile. So let's call it sanitizing from here.

Although "micro" scratches can harbour pathogens, you are still unlikely to infect a brew with it if you properly sanitize it. Why? In most cases the sanitizer will also reach those places (quality detergents are designed to do exactly that). What's worse are regular scratches that will simply hold debris. You can not sanitize mud.

People prefer stainless steel over plastic, but reality is that stainless under a microscope looks like a alien nuclaer waste land with craters and canyons. And guess what? It also scratches.

Best would be to use copper as it has bactericidal proporties.

So in short;

Stainless is superior over plastic as it's harder to scratch, but both are perfectly fine if you handle your equipment normally.

Additionally, normal boiling will NOT sterilize anything. You will need a pressure cooker if you want to reach the 121c that is required to kill spores.

To properly sanitize equipment just make sure you follow the directions carefully; don't use too much detergent as this will sometimes make a detergent less effective. Also make sure to follow the exposure times; these are minimum times not recommended times.

Silver would be even better than copper a tad expensive, plus would weed out any werewolves in your drinking circle :lol:. Using an autoclave at 10 atmospheres at 120c for four hours is overkill for homebrew, although the only way the kill some spore bacteria, not even sure cyanobacteria would be killed even with that.

 

[Cwrw666]

Additionally, normal boiling will NOT sterilize anything. You will need a pressure cooker if you want to reach the 121c that is required to kill spores.

In that case I've been successfully brewing for over 40 years without ever sanitising anything as all I ever use is boiling water.

 

[Pfeffer]

That's the whole idea about fermenting creating a hostile environment for pathogens. That it gets you a buzz is a plus..

 

[MyQul]

People prefer stainless steel over plastic, but reality is that stainless under a microscope looks like a alien nuclaer waste land with craters and canyons. And guess what? It also scratches.

Best would be to use copper as it has bactericidal proporties.

So in short;

Stainless is superior over plastic as it's harder to scratch, but both are perfectly fine if you handle your equipment normally.

What about glass? The wino's use Demijohns for their prefered tipple and carboys are very popular in the states

 

[MyQul]

Silver would be even better than copper a tad expensive,.

OOOOOhhh!!!!!! SHINEY!!!!!!

 

[Hoddy]

First of all, it will not be sterile. Even the best cleaners will not sterilize a whole FV, you might kill germs that are in there.. but the second you empty it, fresh air gets in and it's not longer sterile. So let's call it sanitizing from here.



Although "micro" scratches can harbour pathogens, you are still unlikely to infect a brew with it if you properly sanitize it. Why? In most cases the sanitizer will also reach those places (quality detergents are designed to do exactly that). What's worse are regular scratches that will simply hold debris. You can not sanitize mud.



People prefer stainless steel over plastic, but reality is that stainless under a microscope looks like a alien nuclaer waste land with craters and canyons. And guess what? It also scratches.



Best would be to use copper as it has bactericidal proporties.



So in short;



Stainless is superior over plastic as it's harder to scratch, but both are perfectly fine if you handle your equipment normally.



Additionally, normal boiling will NOT sterilize anything. You will need a pressure cooker if you want to reach the 121c that is required to kill spores.



To properly sanitize equipment just make sure you follow the directions carefully; don't use too much detergent as this will sometimes make a detergent less effective. Also make sure to follow the exposure times; these are minimum times not recommended times.

I have also come to the conclusion that you can end up with developed "really bad" bacterial infections which are more damaging that some others.

Not being a microbiologist myself. But I had concluded this could eminently possible. And potential the problem I've had where a really bad bacteria has infected everything in my whole process from fermenter onwards.


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[Chippy_Tea]

Does anyone have a method other than heating the juice as i pour it straight from fridge to DJ.

Would running a flame over the edge of the bottle/carton have the desired effect?

I don't mean like this :lol:

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[Tau]

Does anyone have a method other than heating the juice as i pour it straight from fridge to DJ.

Would running a flame over the edge of the bottle/carton have the desired effect?

I don't mean like this :lol:

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That would be more fun :smile: I wouldn't bother at start, but the topping with juices you all seem to do at the end of fermentation different. Just use a little cleaning solution and give it a wipe clean, let if stand for a few min's then top up.

 

[MyQul]

Does anyone have a method other than heating the juice as i pour it straight from fridge to DJ.

Would running a flame over the edge of the bottle/carton have the desired effect?

I don't mean like this :lol:

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Whilst I highly advocate using flame throwers in home brewing you could use a no-rinse sanitiser like star san in a spray bottle to spray the carton opening before pouring (it's what I do for example before I pour my starter into my wort I will spray the DJ opening that I made the starter in)
Star san is expensive initially but last a long time. I've had my bottle for over 3 years

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I have only recently started to top up with juice so i think i may have to get some star san, i guess the old saying better safe than sorry fits here.

 

[Pfeffer]

I have also come to the conclusion that you can end up with developed "really bad" bacterial infections which are more damaging that some others.

You sure can. However a fungal "wild yeast" contamination is far more likely, as that will take hold much easier. Most pathogenic bacteria prefer a less acid environment though (wort is slightly acidic). However if bacteria take hold, the by products are usually far more noticeable. You can have small fungal infections that you would never notice.

Especially slow fermenting beers with a high OG tend to be sensitive for bacterial infections. If your brew is infected it's likely already sufficiently inocculated before the yeast gets a chance to fight it.

You might even have a botulism infection in your mead or krausen ring if you are extremely unlucky. The few proteins/polypeptides in there are enough to start a small culture when they coagulate (krausen ring/foam) on your fermenter.

Should this put you off brewing? Nah. You are far more likely to win the lottery.. And as I still drive a Fabia I'm pretty sure that never happened to me either. It can also happen to dried sausage etc in a commercial factory.

 

[Leemond]

I often leave things soaking in the steriliser for quite a bit longer than it says to (occasionally overnight for example) - could this be harming anything?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I often leave things soaking in the steriliser for quite a bit longer than it says to (occasionally overnight for example) - could this be harming anything?

I know Milton says it will sterilise your gear up to 24 hours after you make it but assume all sterilisers are not the same.

 

[MyQul]

I have only recently started to top up with juice so i think i may have to get some star san, i guess the old saying better safe than sorry fits here.

If you dont want the initial shell out costs of star san you can use a bleach/vinegar no rinse solution
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66838&highlight=bleach
As it says in the link in the OP make sure you dont mix the bleach and vinegar directly or you'll gas yourself with chlorine gas