Homebrew class

[jceg316]

Hey everyone,

I'm Running a homebrew session on the 30th April which will be good for beginners and those looking to get started with all grain, and those who just want to know a little more about beer, its ingredients, and its history.

It will be at Skeet Hill House in Orpington, Kent, and costs �£40 for the session. Includes lunch, some beer to drink for the day and to take home.

More information can be found here: http://sadehfarm.co.uk/may-day.

 

[DethApostle]

Hi JCReg,

How do the legalities of the 'Learn how to brew' part work with regards to License and Beer Duty?
i.e. You are charging 40quid for a ticket price which includes homebrewed (non-duty paid) beer to drink as part of it.
Also, as you're providing alcohol for consumption by the public do you need a License, the nod from EHO and insurance in place?


I've (very) recently been considered something similar to this myself as an event run by our homebrew club but our proposed venue raised all these questions to us!

Cheers!
DA

 

[Leon103]

All of those questions are right and those things would need to be in place to proceed.

 

[DethApostle]

Thanks Leon,

Part of me was hoping that somebody would say that 'the ticket price is for the brewing lesson and not the samples so Duty isn't an issue'!
Playing devil's advocate a little... if the description of the ticket didn't mention the samples at all... would that be better/ok?

DA

 

[Leon103]

If there is no mention of homebrew on the ticket and advertising then yes it would be better but people would expect to pay less. And the. You hope that word doesn't get out.

 

[DethApostle]

I did just ask a few guys in the know at my work and the jist of the answer I got was ...
A license isn't required for consumption of alcohol but only for the sale of alcohol. This being the case it's better, as you say, if there is no mention of the ticket price including homebrew to drink. Ultimately if the event is a low frequency event (i.e. not every week) and low volume (i.e. not dispensing barrels of non-duty paid beer) then its fair to provide free samples. Bigger volume/higher frequency of events just makes it look like a fake course in order to facilitate the sale of duty-less beer.

Obviously don't take this as gospel and I thoroughly suggest you do your own research on this before proceeding!
DA

 

[jceg316]

The homebrew is free, we are not selling alcohol, and the beer we are making will not be sold either. I know a homebrew school who runs regular classes in a similar fashion.

These classes will be infrequent and I'm guessing no more than around 10 people.

 

[Leon103]

The homebrew is free, we are not selling alcohol, and the beer we are making will not be sold either. I know a homebrew school who runs regular classes in a similar fashion.

These classes will be infrequent and I'm guessing no more than around 10 people.

Didn't think you can swap or giveaway homebrew either.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I guess no one will bother as i doubt anyone there will know the law, amusing the thread is in the Competitions, Bottle Swaps, Events and Meetups forum. :lol:

 

[Lowcliff]

I did just ask a few guys in the know at my work and the jist of the answer I got was ...
A license isn't required for consumption of alcohol but only for the sale of alcohol. This being the case it's better, as you say, if there is no mention of the ticket price including homebrew to drink. Ultimately if the event is a low frequency event (i.e. not every week) and low volume (i.e. not dispensing barrels of non-duty paid beer) then its fair to provide free samples. Bigger volume/higher frequency of events just makes it look like a fake course in order to facilitate the sale of duty-less beer.

Obviously don't take this as gospel and I thoroughly suggest you do your own research on this before proceeding!
DA

Beer duty should be paid

 

[simon12]

I am 99% sure you can give away and swap homebrew privately but giving it away at a commercial event is another matter, but I imagine unless there are drunk people everywhere the authorities would turn a blind eye unless the homebrew drinking was the main event.

 

[yeastinfection]

id have to give mine away....nobody would buy it

 

[jceg316]

I think this is a very interesting discussion I'd like to get involved in, however it probably needs its own thread if it doesn't have one already. Remember to back up opinions with sources as well, wouldn't want to be adding to the "fake news" epidemic...

 

[simon12]

Fair point, good luck with the classes.

 

[IainM]

I think this is a very interesting discussion I'd like to get involved in, however it probably needs its own thread if it doesn't have one already. Remember to back up opinions with sources as well, wouldn't want to be adding to the "fake news" epidemic...

The thing is, it is pretty much impossible to back opinions up with sources, as there aren't any sources. I've tried to find cases where a homebrewer has been prosecuted for selling beer, but I haven't found a single one. Nor should they be. There are people doing alcohol duty fraud. They buy from producers for selling abroad, so don't pay duty, but the lorry never leaves the country and instead goes to stock an illegal wholesaler in the UK. There are plenty of them, sometimes selling branded beers for less than the cost of the duty. This costs the treasury a billion and a half a year, and they get reported by legitimate competitors. If you look at the cases where people have been prosecuted for not paying duty, they have usually defrauded the government out of several million pounds, or at the very least hundreds of thousands. HMRC don't even bother pursuing criminals that are evading tens of thousands in duty, even if those illegal businesses have been reported to them multiple times. They have have bigger fish to fry. Given this, the idea that the police or HMRC will care about a home brewer giving away samples of home-made beer as part of a brewing class, is just laughable. Is doing it illegal? As far as I can gather, it hasn't gone to trial and so nobody knows. It is a legal grey area, and I could image arguments that could be put forward by both the prosecutor and the defence. Only a judge could make the final call. All I can say is that I seriously doubt it would ever get that far.

 

[stigman]

I don't know the ins and outs. But last year our homebrew club put on an event at one of our members brewery, as part of Manchester beer week. We called it a homebrew expo basically giving out beer to the general public free of charge. The way around the legality side if things was, we had the drinkers vote on the beers and called it a competition.

 

[Leon103]

The thing is, it is pretty much impossible to back opinions up with sources, as there aren't any sources. I've tried to find cases where a homebrewer has been prosecuted for selling beer, but I haven't found a single one. Nor should they be. There are people doing alcohol duty fraud. They buy from producers for selling abroad, so don't pay duty, but the lorry never leaves the country and instead goes to stock an illegal wholesaler in the UK. There are plenty of them, sometimes selling branded beers for less than the cost of the duty. This costs the treasury a billion and a half a year, and they get reported by legitimate competitors. If you look at the cases where people have been prosecuted for not paying duty, they have usually defrauded the government out of several million pounds, or at the very least hundreds of thousands. HMRC don't even bother pursuing criminals that are evading tens of thousands in duty, even if those illegal businesses have been reported to them multiple times. They have have bigger fish to fry. Given this, the idea that the police or HMRC will care about a home brewer giving away samples of home-made beer as part of a brewing class, is just laughable. Is doing it illegal? As far as I can gather, it hasn't gone to trial and so nobody knows. It is a legal grey area, and I could image arguments that could be put forward by both the prosecutor and the defence. Only a judge could make the final call. All I can say is that I seriously doubt it would ever get that far.

Haven't known a number of hmrc investigators then I can say they do pursue all complaints. In a lot of cases the avoided duty is repaid before any prosecution, this tends to be the case with lower figures.

There have been plenty of cases with people avoiding duty on alcohol, what we don't know if it avoided homebrew or home made alcohol, made for public consumption.

Also just because there are no known legal cases doesn't mean it isn't law.

I think the op said he was giing away alcohol as part of the entrance fee, the necessary licences are needed and duty would be needed.