Help with piecing together a recipe....

[Brewnaldo]

Folks, I need a little help. I have contacted a local brewery who brew a tropical IPA I really like. Will PM it to anyone who wants as well as the name but dont want to share publicly in case they arent happy with that....

However I need a little help to fill in the gaps. The grain bill is 90% Pale Malt and 10% Vienna. I am shooting for a 23 litre batch and the ABV is 5.5%. Can anyone help me with how much grain I would need. It uses American Ale yeast. And I assume a bog standard 65 degree mash. Also, he told me 12g of bittering hops. Unsure which ones to choose. High AA% I assume?

Lastly, he did specify the whirlpool hops, but I do no chill, would whirlpool hops be added at 80 degrees?

Any help appreciated and PM me if anyone wants the recipe and the name of the beer

 

[MyQul]

You can easily do whirlpool hops when doing no chill. Chuck em in the wort at knock out and leave them their for 20 mins. Then when you put your wort into your cube, just pass the wort through a seive to strain out the hops. That's what I do, anyway

 

[Brewnaldo]

You can easily do whirlpool hops when doing no chill. Chuck em in the wort at knock out and leave them their for 20 mins. Then when you put your wort into your cube, just pass the wort through a seive to strain out the hops. That's what I do, anyway

By knock out don you mean when I switch off the heat? Last brew I did as you say, fired a load of hops in at around 80 degrees, left them for a bit then strained out on the transfer.

 

[MyQul]

By knock out don you mean when I switch off the heat? Last brew I did as you say, fired a load of hops in at around 80 degrees, left them for a bit then strained out on the transfer.

Yes, when you turn the heat off. You can do it at knock out or 80C. Doing it at 80C retains more volitile hop oils but I find it a painwaiting for it to get down to 80C. So I just do it at knock out

 

[Brewnaldo]

Yes, when you turn the heat off. You can do it at knock out or 80C. Doing it at 80C retains more volitile hop oils but I find it a painwaiting for it to get down to 80C. So I just do it at knock out

Ok. This late hop addition stuff has been one of my biggest wonderings re the no chill method so appreciate your input.

 

[MyQul]

Ok. This late hop addition stuff has been one of my biggest wonderings re the no chill method so appreciate your input.

Doing no-chill isnt hard. Just follow the recipe as you would anyway if you were using a chiller. Then strain the hops out before you put the wort into whatever you no-chill in. Things might be different if you make highly hopped things like DIPA's or something but I never make hop bombs so Im not sure about those types of beers

 

[Dorst]

Giving absolute numbers without knowing the ingredients, your brewing setup, or the numbers you are shooting for is really difficult - if not impossible. I would advise on using some brewing software, like brewfather.

Did the brewer give you some useful data like IBU?

To give you an idication I've plugged in some numbers using my equipment (Braumeister with about 72 percent brewhouse efficiency). Obviously you will need to adjust for your equipment but it will give you a ballpark for your recipe

4600 gr pale malt
500 gr vienna

Will get me 1.049 original gravity using a single 65c mash

I have chosen US-05 yeast which has about 81 percent attenuation which will get you to a final gravity of 1.007 -> 5.5 percent ABV

You will need to be a bit mindful of the bitterness.

12 grams bittering hops (60 minutes) will give you about 1.3 IBU per AA%. This means that a 12% AA hop will give you about 16 IBU
Doing a hopstand at 80 degrees C will still extract a good amount of bitterness from the hops. The extraction depends on temperature, AA, and the duration of the hopstand. My guess is that a tropical IPA is relatively mild in it's bitterness.

If you post your whole recipe we can maybe give you more pointers.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Giving absolute numbers without knowing the ingredients, your brewing setup, or the numbers you are shooting for is really difficult - if not impossible. I would advise on using some brewing software, like brewfather.

Did the brewer give you some useful data like IBU?

To give you an idication I've plugged in some numbers using my equipment (Braumeister with about 72 percent brewhouse efficiency). Obviously you will need to adjust for your equipment but it will give you a ballpark for your recipe

4600 gr pale malt
500 gr vienna

Will get me 1.049 original gravity using a single 65c mash

I have chosen US-05 yeast which has about 81 percent attenuation which will get you to a final gravity of 1.007 -> 5.5 percent ABV

You will need to be a bit mindful of the bitterness.

12 grams bittering hops (60 minutes) will give you about 1.3 IBU per AA%. This means that a 12% AA hop will give you about 16 IBU
Doing a hopstand at 80 degrees C will still extract a good amount of bitterness from the hops. The extraction depends on temperature, AA, and the duration of the hopstand. My guess is that a tropical IPA is relatively mild in it's bitterness.

If you post your whole recipe we can maybe give you more pointers.

Thank you.

This is what I have

GRAIN

90% Pale Malt

10% Vienna



HOPS

Boil – 12g Bittering hop

Whirlpool – 15g each Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe



FERMENT – American Ale Yeast



DRYHOP – 15g each Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, Azzaca

 

[Dorst]

All your whirlpool hops are in the same ballpark when it comes to AA (they are usually between 11 and 14 percent). So a 30 minute hopstand @ 80C will give about 3.5 IBU at 12 percent AA and 3.8 IBU at 13 percent AA (both 15 grams).

So this is what my software returns:
12 g (16 IBU) — Magnum 12% — Boil — 60 min
15 g (4 IBU) — Citra 12% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
15 g (4 IBU) — Mosaic 12.25% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
15 g (4 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C

For a total of 27 IBU, which is relatively mild for a beer of this type. It certainly shoots below the IPA styleguide numbers in terms of bitterness.

A thing to be mindful of is that a larger scale brewery has higher hop utilisation than a homebrewer. You could compensate by adding a bit more hops at every step. Again, I do no know the original beer so I don't know what I'm comparing it against. I would personally increase the numbers up a bit - but this is personal preference.

Also 45 grams dryhop in 23 liters will get you some hop aroma - but it will certainly not create a tropical IPA at homebrew levels. I also would look to increase the dosage here a bit upwards.

Does this help?

 

[PhilBrew]

Things might be different if you make highly hopped things like DIPA's or something but I never make hop bombs so I'm not sure about those types of beers.

... for more heavily hopped beers, doing the late-hopping/hop-stands after you've no-chilled (but before pitching) can be a better option ... basically you make a "real wort" hop-tea ... towards/at end of boil, don't add the hops to be added late or for steeping in the recipe, just finish the boil and get on with no-chilling ... when your wort is cool, take a small portion of your wort into a pan and bring it up to boil (to sterilise the pan) then add your late hops from the recipe (all the hops from the recipe in this portion of wort) ... you can then cool the pan (sink of water method) and do any hop-steeps ... and when that's all done cool the pan in a sink of cold water, and add it to the rest of the wort from your no-chill into your fermenter.

Cheers, PhilB

 

[Brewnaldo]

All your whirlpool hops are in the same ballpark when it comes to AA (they are usually between 11 and 14 percent). So a 30 minute hopstand @ 80C will give about 3.5 IBU at 12 percent AA and 3.8 IBU at 13 percent AA (both 15 grams).

So this is what my software returns:
12 g (16 IBU) — Magnum 12% — Boil — 60 min
15 g (4 IBU) — Citra 12% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
15 g (4 IBU) — Mosaic 12.25% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
15 g (4 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C

For a total of 27 IBU, which is relatively mild for a beer of this type. It certainly shoots below the IPA styleguide numbers in terms of bitterness.

A thing to be mindful of is that a larger scale brewery has higher hop utilisation than a homebrewer. You could compensate by adding a bit more hops at every step. Again, I do no know the original beer so I don't know what I'm comparing it against. I would personally increase the numbers up a bit - but this is personal preference.

Also 45 grams dryhop in 23 liters will get you some hop aroma - but it will certainly not create a tropical IPA at homebrew levels. I also would look to increase the dosage here a bit upwards.

Does this help?

Absolutely. I will definitely up the dry hops as I thought that myself before consulting those who know better.

 

[MyQul]

... for more heavily hopped beers, doing the late-hopping/hop-stands after you've no-chilled (but before pitching) can be a better option ... basically you make a "real wort" hop-tea ... towards/at end of boil, don't add the hops to be added late or for steeping in the recipe, just finish the boil and get on with no-chilling ... when your wort is cool, take a small portion of your wort into a pan and bring it up to boil (to sterilise the pan) then add your late hops from the recipe (all the hops from the recipe in this portion of wort) ... you can then cool the pan (sink of water method) and do any hop-steeps ... and when that's all done cool the pan in a sink of cold water, and add it to the rest of the wort from your no-chill into your fermenter.

Cheers, PhilB

I used to do this when I first started AG brewing and No chilling. As I had with read that with no chill you needed to adjust the hopping rates and I couldn't work out how. I soon discovered however, for the beers I like to make you dont need to do any adjustments. Just make sure you strain the hops out before putting them in the no-chill cube/FV.
Incidentley I have left all the hops in the no-chill FV or 14 days to see what would happen. My beer came out tasting soapy. But it did eventually condition out

 

[PhilBrew]

I soon discovered however, for the beers I like to make you dont need to do any adjustments. Just make sure you strain th hops out before putting them in the no-chill cube/FV.

... I agree, I wouldn't do the above for an English Pale or Lager (say) with a modicum of late (10 - 5 min) hops, and I still think the wort holds on to a fair amount of the hop flavour after no-chilling (and on into the finished beer) ... I think this is just for those beers where you're throwing a wheelbarrow full of hops at a recipe

Cheers, PhilB

 

[Dorst]

TS messaged me the original beer (which I will not share) - so I was able to dail in the recipe a bit more. By the sound of it they use WLP060 yeast - but I'll stick with US-05 for sake of simplicity and availability. This means the beer overshoots the ABV by 0.1 percent. Otherwise I think this looks good to go. Any additional thoughts from those in the topic?

Vitals
Volume: 23 liters
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.009
IBU (Tinseth): 35
Color: 11.2 EBC

Mash
Temperature — 68 °C — 60 min

Malts (5.45 kg)
4.9 kg (89.9%) — Pale Ale — Grain — 7.1 EBC
550 g (10.1%) — Vienna — Grain — 10 EBC

Hops (156 g)
16 g (21 IBU) — Magnum 12% — Boil — 60 min
20 g (5 IBU) — Citra 12% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
20 g (5 IBU) — Mosaic 12.25% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
20 g (5 IBU) — Simcoe 13% — Aroma — 30 min hopstand @ 80 °C
20 g — Azacca 15% — Dry Hop — 5 days
20 g — Citra 12% — Dry Hop — 5 days
20 g — Galaxy 14% — Dry Hop — 5 days
20 g — Mosaic 12.25% — Dry Hop — 5 days

Yeast
1 pkg — Fermentis US-05 Safale American

 

[Brewnaldo]

Thanks Dorst for your time ans effort and a very thorough response. I will proceed on the basis of what you have said!

 

[Brewnaldo]

Just as a wee update, I have placed an order to brew this as per Dorsts recipe above. One thing I forgot to ask.... Does the level of late and dry hopping mean theres a NEIPA level of oxidation risk or should this be ok using standard techniques?

 

[Dorst]

oxygen and beer seem a bit paradoxical. When you boil your wort all the oxygen is boiled out - but yeast needs oxygen to multiply and build cell walls. This is why you see brewers splash, shake, and oxygenate beer after cooling it down To supply the yeast with oxygen.

There are those that are wary of hot-side oxidation, which is what happens if you splash around your hot beer before cooling down. So, if you steep your hops at 80c be careful not to disturb the wort too much. Otherwise, not too much risk of oxidation.

When dryhopping there is a small risk of oxidation if you are not careful. The yeast will have created a blanket of co2 between the beer and the top of the fermenter. Try to limit the amount of time you spend with the lid off. Some brewers prefer to dryhop at the end of fermentation so that the yeast produces more co2 and fills up that protective blanket of co2. In my experience I would not worry too much here though.

Most of the oxidation happens when packaging. When transfering to bottle or keg is where the most exposure is to oxygen. This is when you need to be most careful.

 

[Brewnaldo]

The pieces are all now in place with the exception of Magnum which I couldnt get.

I see a hop table that suggested Northern Brewer as a sub which I uave some of. Would that be ok? Or can anyone suggest a better substitute?

 

[Dorst]

Magnum is a clean bittering hop, it does not really impart much flavour. Any high AA hop with a clean profile will do as a replacement. Columbus or Northern Brewer will do fine.

btw Northern Brewer is in usually lower in AA, so you might need to add a bit more to get the same bittering effect.

 

[Brewnaldo]

Magnum is a clean bittering hop, it does not really impart much flavour. Any high AA hop with a clean profile will do as a replacement. Columbus or Northern Brewer will do fine.

btw Northern Brewer is in usually lower in AA, so you might need to add a bit more to get the same bittering effect.

Yeah the stuff I have is 7% and fortunately having worked out the sums I have just a wee bit more than enough to get the 21 IBU I need.

Cheers again