Help me fix my homebrew.

[dreaddan]

So I've decided to re-brew the last recipe I brewed to try to improve my process.
Although I thought it was ok , unfortunately it I did get a poor score from the comp I entered it into.

So I've pulled the last score sheet out to remind myself what was said (in short):


Issue 1: - Aroma
Stale, musty Aroma, slightly sulfury, devoid of any hop aroma


Issue 2 - Flavour/Mouthfeel:
Medium musty flavour, some sulphur on the finish.
Touch of astringency

Recommendation: use enough yeast and leave the beer on for long enough.


So re-reading the original recipe I've clearly not used enough hops but one of the magnets didn't hold the hops and and they were dangling in the wort before I dropped them in which I think is probably part of the cause.


I brew 10l batches and use 1 packet of dry yeast so I don't think increasing the yeast will help.

So I'm at a loss what else to look at ???

Thanks in advance :)

Original Recipe

Mash​

Temperature — 67 °C — 45 min

Malts (2.567 kg)​

1.6 kg (62.3%) — Simpsons Pale Ale Golden Promise — Grain — 5 EBC
714 g (27.8%) — Crisp Clear Choice Malt ® Extra Pale — Grain — 3.7 EBC
208 g (8.1%) — Crisp Wheat Malt — Grain — 4.1 EBC
45 g (1.8%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 3 EBC

Hops (75 g)​

10 g (13 IBU) — Bramling Cross 6% — Boil — 60 min
20 g (6 IBU) — cf184 5% — Boil — 5 min
20 g (2 IBU) — cf184 5% — Aroma — 15 min hopstand @80C
15 g — cf184 5% — Dry Hop — 3 days
10 g — Strata 12.8% — Dry Hop — 3 days

Aroma : 1.67 g/l
Dry hops: 2.08 g/l

Miscs​

0.97 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
0.93 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
1.01 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
1.5 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Mash
1.34 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
1.28 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Sparge
1.39 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
0.2 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Sparge
0.25 items — Whirlfloc — Boil — 15 min

Yeast​

1 pkg — Fermentis US-05 Safale American 81%

Fermentation​

Primary — 20 °C — 14 days
Conditioning — 20 °C — 14 days




New recipe

Mash​

Temperature — 67 °C — 45 min

Malts (1.902 kg)​

1.718 kg (90.3%) — Simpsons Pale Ale Golden Promise — Grain — 5 EBC (I might swap this for clear choice)
150 g (7.9%) — Crisp Wheat Malt — Grain — 4.1 EBC
34 g (1.8%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 3 EBC

Hops (110.5 g)​

12.2 g (19 IBU) — Bramling Cross 6% — Boil — 60 min
12.5 g (6 IBU) — Meridian 6.3% — Boil — 5 min
40 g (7 IBU) — Meridian 6.3% — Aroma — 15 min hopstand at 80 °C
25 g — Meridian 6.3% — Dry Hop — 3 days
20.8 g — Strata 12.8% — Dry Hop — 3 days


Aroma : 4g/l
Dry hops: 4.58 g/l

Miscs​

0.99 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
0.9 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
0.99 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
1 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Mash
1.21 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
1.1 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Sparge
1.21 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
0.24 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Sparge
0.208 items — Whirlfloc — Boil — 15 min

Yeast​

1 pkg — Fermentis US-05 Safale American 81%

Fermentation​

Primary — 20 °C — 21 days
Conditioning — 20 °C — 14 days

 

[Clint]

The thing that stands out the most to me is "musty".

 

[Sadfield]

What style were you aiming for? It looks like an American Pale Ale, but a little underhopped, in the first recipe.

How do you serve the beer for yourself, from keg or bottle? And how did you bottle for the competition? Were they the same?

I think you need to be looking at your packaging process if stale flavour and aroma is the issue.

 

[foxy]

So I've decided to re-brew the last recipe I brewed to try to improve my process.
Although I thought it was ok , unfortunately it I did get a poor score from the comp I entered it into.

So I've pulled the last score sheet out to remind myself what was said (in short):


Issue 1: - Aroma
Stale, musty Aroma, slightly sulfury, devoid of any hop aroma


Issue 2 - Flavour/Mouthfeel:
Medium musty flavour, some sulphur on the finish.
Touch of astringency

Recommendation: use enough yeast and leave the beer on for long enough.


So re-reading the original recipe I've clearly not used enough hops but one of the magnets didn't hold the hops and and they were dangling in the wort before I dropped them in which I think is probably part of the cause.


I brew 10l batches and use 1 packet of dry yeast so I don't think increasing the yeast will help.

So I'm at a loss what else to look at ???

Thanks in advance :)

Original Recipe

Mash​

Temperature — 67 °C — 45 min

Malts (2.567 kg)​

1.6 kg (62.3%) — Simpsons Pale Ale Golden Promise — Grain — 5 EBC
714 g (27.8%) — Crisp Clear Choice Malt ® Extra Pale — Grain — 3.7 EBC
208 g (8.1%) — Crisp Wheat Malt — Grain — 4.1 EBC
45 g (1.8%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 3 EBC

Hops (75 g)​

10 g (13 IBU) — Bramling Cross 6% — Boil — 60 min
20 g (6 IBU) — cf184 5% — Boil — 5 min
20 g (2 IBU) — cf184 5% — Aroma — 15 min hopstand @80C
15 g — cf184 5% — Dry Hop — 3 days
10 g — Strata 12.8% — Dry Hop — 3 days

Aroma : 1.67 g/l
Dry hops: 2.08 g/l

Miscs​

0.97 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
0.93 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
1.01 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
1.5 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Mash
1.34 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
1.28 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Sparge
1.39 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
0.2 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Sparge
0.25 items — Whirlfloc — Boil — 15 min

Yeast​

1 pkg — Fermentis US-05 Safale American 81%

Fermentation​

Primary — 20 °C — 14 days
Conditioning — 20 °C — 14 days




New recipe

Mash​

Temperature — 67 °C — 45 min

Malts (1.902 kg)​

1.718 kg (90.3%) — Simpsons Pale Ale Golden Promise — Grain — 5 EBC (I might swap this for clear choice)
150 g (7.9%) — Crisp Wheat Malt — Grain — 4.1 EBC
34 g (1.8%) — Wheat Flaked — Grain — 3 EBC

Hops (110.5 g)​

12.2 g (19 IBU) — Bramling Cross 6% — Boil — 60 min
12.5 g (6 IBU) — Meridian 6.3% — Boil — 5 min
40 g (7 IBU) — Meridian 6.3% — Aroma — 15 min hopstand at 80 °C
25 g — Meridian 6.3% — Dry Hop — 3 days
20.8 g — Strata 12.8% — Dry Hop — 3 days


Aroma : 4g/l
Dry hops: 4.58 g/l

Miscs​

0.99 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
0.9 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash
0.99 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
1 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Mash
1.21 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Sparge
1.1 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Sparge
1.21 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Sparge
0.24 ml — Phosphoric Acid 75% — Sparge
0.208 items — Whirlfloc — Boil — 15 min

Yeast​

1 pkg — Fermentis US-05 Safale American 81%

Fermentation​

Primary — 20 °C — 21 days
Conditioning — 20 °C — 14 days

How long was the boil?
Sulphur and astringency are often associated with dry hopping, 3 days is that day 3 of the start of fermentation or 3rd day in the fermenter?

 

[Rodcx500z]

did you not give it 2 weeks to carb up at 20c and the 2 weeks conditioning

 

[dreaddan]

The thing that stands out the most to me is "musty".

Hmm looking at this. I guess I do ferment in an old fridge that needed a bit of cleaning up. But seems clean.
The fermenter was new too as the old one didn't seal and all brews I did in it were oxidised
I do store my grans in the celler so it possable they were not 100%

 

[dreaddan]

What style were you aiming for? It looks like an American Pale Ale, but a little underhopped, in the first recipe.

How do you serve the beer for yourself, from keg or bottle? And how did you bottle for the competition? Were they the same?

I think you need to be looking at your packaging process if stale flavour and aroma is the issue.

Ophs I cut that part of, its brewed to English golden ale - aiming for a nice refreshing summer drink :)

All were bottled (I don't keg), I think the only posable difference was I might have sent plastic bottles and drank out of glass ones.
I tried a bottle the same day as the comp, though mine had had a 5 hour drive the same day.

I do think my botteling needs improvement, maybe I'll stop botteling in the celer.

 

[dreaddan]

did you not give it 2 weeks to carb up at 20c and the 2 weeks conditioning

Yes just double checked brewfather it had bang on 2 weeks when I bottled it. And will have had 2 to carb up before posting. Iirc I posted with plenty of time for it to sit the other end too

 

[Old Fart At Play]

I expect you've ruled this out, but were malt and hops fresh/ in good condition?

Incidentally I see you were thinking of swapping out the Simpsons Golden Promise - I use that malt a lot and love it

 

[The Baron]

Sounds like possible stale grain hops to me. how old where they and how have you stored them because the grains can absorb water in cold environments if not airtight

 

[dreaddan]

The gran will be a few months old (crushed) sealed (probably not air tight) stored in a plastic box in a cold damp celler.

I've got fresh grain for this brew, though probably a month old but still sealed from geb.

 

[dreaddan]

How long was the boil?
Sulphur and astringency are often associated with dry hopping, 3 days is that day 3 of the start of fermentation or 3rd day in the fermenter?

Sorry missed this.
Its a 60 min Boil, and 3 days is 3 days from botteling. e.g. day 11 from the start of fermentation on a 14 day fermentation.

 

[foxy]

Sorry missed this.
Its a 60 min Boil, and 3 days is 3 days from botteling. e.g. day 11 from the start of fermentation on a 14 day fermentation.

I tend to replace dry hopping with hop stands and I have noticed in some of Gordon Strong's recipes that when it comes to hop additions he does say dry hop or hop stand. Maybe give that a go and see if it makes a difference.

 

[dreaddan]

Just looked at the fermenter and the krausen has dropped already, which got me thinking - could over pitching cause any of these issues?
Although brewfather says to use 1 packet of heast the calc actually says use 7g which is half a packet....

 

[Sadfield]

Over pitching can lead to sulphur. And, generally it isn't ideal, so pitching less would be a step in the right direction. I'm not sure it's the full answer to your problem, though.

Not sure what you are fermenting in, but if it's something that needs opening to check on it's progress, then that might be the issue with oxidation.

 

[Clarence]

So I've decided to re-brew the last recipe I brewed to try to improve my process.
Although I thought it was ok , unfortunately it I did get a poor score from the comp I entered it into.

Hi @dreaddan, if I understand correctly, you made a decent beer which you thought was OK. You were happy with the beer to have the confidence to enter it in a competition. Unfortunately, the sample was slated.
OK, we can all improve our process and use fresher ingredients, but was the beer really musty? Surely you would have tasted it if it was. Have you got any bottles left? Give one a try and ask your mates to taste it too.
There's many a slip twixt cup and lip! Maybe the sample wasn't representative- a dirty bottle, perhaps. Maybe they mistreated it at the venue. Maybe the judge just didn't like it.
It really is important to know whether there is something really wrong with your beer or whether there was something wrong with either the sample or the competition itself.

 

[dreaddan]

Over pitching can lead to sulphur. And, generally it isn't ideal, so pitching less would be a step in the right direction. I'm not sure it's the full answer to your problem, though.

Not sure what you are fermenting in, but if it's something that needs opening to check on it's progress, then that might be the issue with oxidation.

Yer I suspect that it's not the only issue but won't help.

I use a plastic fermenter but don't open it if I don't need to. Some air will get when I open the tap to grab a sample to test the grav.

 

[dreaddan]

Hi @dreaddan, if I understand correctly, you made a decent beer which you thought was OK. You were happy with the beer to have the confidence to enter it in a competition. Unfortunately, the sample was slated.
OK, we can all improve our process and use fresher ingredients, but was the beer really musty? Surely you would have tasted it if it was. Have you got any bottles left? Give one a try and ask your mates to taste it too.
There's many a slip twixt cup and lip! Maybe the sample wasn't representative- a dirty bottle, perhaps. Maybe they mistreated it at the venue. Maybe the judge just didn't like it.
It really is important to know whether there is something really wrong with your beer or whether there was something wrong with either the sample or the competition itself.

Your right, but at the same time it's about improving too.
Imo the beer was ok, but still needs improving.
I have given bottles to friends, 1 has said its amazing (I don't believe them), 2 has said it was ok, the other 2 have not told me what it was like...

 

[nickjdavis]

Hi @dreaddan, if I understand correctly, you made a decent beer which you thought was OK. You were happy with the beer to have the confidence to enter it in a competition. Unfortunately, the sample was slated.
OK, we can all improve our process and use fresher ingredients, but was the beer really musty? Surely you would have tasted it if it was. Have you got any bottles left? Give one a try and ask your mates to taste it too.
There's many a slip twixt cup and lip! Maybe the sample wasn't representative- a dirty bottle, perhaps. Maybe they mistreated it at the venue. Maybe the judge just didn't like it.
It really is important to know whether there is something really wrong with your beer or whether there was something wrong with either the sample or the competition itself.

Well....I'm almost certain the comp in question was the Anglian Craft Brewers comp back in early September...and as the comp organiser AND one of the two judges who judged the OP's beer (I have copies of the scoresheets on my desk in front of me and they virtually mirror the op's summary of comments) I will lay to rest any fears of mistreatment (the beers were stored in refrigerated conditions from receipt at the delivery location and then stored in the judging locations cold store, right up until a couple of hours before judging) or personal bias....I really enjoy a Golden Ale. :-)

@dreaddan
So...looking at the scoresheets and now reading the your description of recipe and process, I would offer the following thoughts...

With regards to bottles....I've done a number of interclub swaps (especially over the Covid period) where bottles were swapped and tasted in live online meetings....we mainly (but not exclusively) swapped beers bottled in PET due to shipping logistics...over the course of the discussions it was clear that many of the comments around the beer in PET bottles were simply not replicated by folks who had a glass bottle to sample. Such was the regularity of such occurrences that I no longer send PET bottled beers off to competitions...all my competition beers are in glass. Also it is very common to find that PET bottle lids are not always tightened properly...you usually find a day after bottling that you can still tighten lids a further eighth to a quarter of a turn. I personally believe as a result of these repeated experiences, that packaging in PET bottles does not present your beer at its best.

Its usually quite difficult to overpitch yeast, the judges have no knowledge that you are brewing a relatively short batch and whilst one pack of dried yeast would normally be adequate for a 23L batch sometimes more is needed...however for a 10L batch it may have been that a full pack was overkill...so yes perhaps maybe only pitching 2/3rds of the pack may be beneficial....the score sheets also note that you should use "healthy" yeast....again we dont know how your yeast is stored and how old it is but it may be an area you can improve upon. Finally...although we all bang on about the 2+2+2 fermenting/conditions regime, there is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving your beer in the FV for a little while longer, giving it a 2 or 3 degree temperature boost to allow the yeast to clear up any fermentation by products.

Both scoresheets note that the finish is dry/very dry...with a mash temp of 67 degrees, that is a little surprising....how good a control do you have over your mash temperature?

As for the recipe itself....there are a lot of dry hop additions but not a great deal of flavour hop additions....even the boil hop additions only come to low 20 IBUs...in my opinion the style can take more bitterness than this (especially as throwing your base recipe through beersmith assuming a 75% mash efficiency) it looks like you are going to end up with a rather robust Golden Ale in excess of 5.3%) and you should be aiming for at least 35 IBU. Both scoresheets noted a sweet balance to the beer with low levels of bitterness so you could balance out the sweetness by reducing the gravity and/or increasing the bittering for the boil hops. I will say though that the revised recipe does seem to be a lot more balanced in this respect....though I still am unsure as to how much hop flavour will be imparted by the minimal late boil hops you are using....i'm not familiar at all with Meridian hops.

(I know it might seems a contradiction where the beer is noted as sweet but with a dry finish but this isnt the case...its perfectly possible for the initial mouthfeel to be sweet but for the beer to finish dry).

Both judges also picked up on some astringency...yes this may be caused by over dry hopping, oversparging (and at too high a temperature) especially with sulphate heavy water can also cause this....youve got far more additions adding sulphate in your sparge water than in your mash water. I know that many folks say to split your salt additions between mash and sparge (and some brewing software makes these calculations automatically) but I'm not sure myself that it isn't overly complicating things unnecessarily. Would be interesting to know what you were starting from in terms of a base water profile and what you were trying to achieve as a target.

Also you mention that your malt was several months old, crushed....possibly a problem but should be alright if never previously opened (you mentioned "probably not airtight" so I'm wondering if they were leftovers from a previous batch?)...in any case, a month old malt, never been opened will not be an issue.

The only other thing...your packaging process could be a source of an issue...you say you think your bottling needs improvment....in what areas do you think it might be "weak"? This is an area where weak process could lead to oxidation in beers with plenty of hops.

Other than the imbalance in the recipe, I'd still say that fermentation was the biggest source of your problem, with possibly some old ingredients contributing, along with a recipe that needed better balance towards the hop bitterness.

I know when you brew limited volumes its sometimes difficult to give much away...but I'd be perfectly happy for you to send me a bottle of the revised brew for me to comment on.

 

[dreaddan]

Hi Nick,
Thats one comprehensive reply :)
It was ACB that ive taken the feedback from.

With regards to bottles....I've done a number of interclub swaps (especially over the Covid period) where bottles were swapped and tasted in live online meetings....we mainly (but not exclusively) swapped beers bottled in PET due to shipping logistics...over the course of the discussions it was clear that many of the comments around the beer in PET bottles were simply not replicated by folks who had a glass bottle to sample. Such was the regularity of such occurrences that I no longer send PET bottled beers off to competitions...all my competition beers are in glass. Also it is very common to find that PET bottle lids are not always tightened properly...you usually find a day after bottling that you can still tighten lids a further eighth to a quarter of a turn. I personally believe as a result of these repeated experiences, that packaging in PET bottles does not present your beer at its best.

Are PET really that bad? I thought they would have been ok - unless the top wasnt fully on - exp as theres less risk of breakages.
I think I've still got another brew that I have both in and do a blind test..

Its usually quite difficult to overpitch yeast, the judges have no knowledge that you are brewing a relatively short batch and whilst one pack of dried yeast would normally be adequate for a 23L batch sometimes more is needed...however for a 10L batch it may have been that a full pack was overkill...so yes perhaps maybe only pitching 2/3rds of the pack may be beneficial....the score sheets also note that you should use "healthy" yeast....again we dont know how your yeast is stored and how old it is but it may be an area you can improve upon. Finally...although we all bang on about the 2+2+2 fermenting/conditions regime, there is absolutely nothing wrong with leaving your beer in the FV for a little while longer, giving it a 2 or 3 degree temperature boost to allow the yeast to clear up any fermentation by products.

The yeast should be healty as the packets were in date and kept in the kitchen fridge, I do think overpitchen may be allowing the yeast to finish very quickly and not having time to clean up.
I asusme when you say 2+2+2 fermenting/conditions regime its 2 weeks in the parmary, 2 in the secondary and 2 to condition?

As for the recipe itself....there are a lot of dry hop additions but not a great deal of flavour hop additions....even the boil hop additions only come to low 20 IBUs...in my opinion the style can take more bitterness than this (especially as throwing your base recipe through beersmith assuming a 75% mash efficiency) it looks like you are going to end up with a rather robust Golden Ale in excess of 5.3%) and you should be aiming for at least 35 IBU. Both scoresheets noted a sweet balance to the beer with low levels of bitterness so you could balance out the sweetness by reducing the gravity and/or increasing the bittering for the boil hops. I will say though that the revised recipe does seem to be a lot more balanced in this respect....though I still am unsure as to how much hop flavour will be imparted by the minimal late boil hops you are using....i'm not familiar at all with Meridian hops.

do tend to get poor efficiency so the grav tends to be higher than brewfather perdicts but is lower than the average 75% ( this one shows 72% eff, vs the last brew of 68%).
What would you recomend a good amount of flavour hops?

Both judges also picked up on some astringency...yes this may be caused by over dry hopping, oversparging (and at too high a temperature) especially with sulphate heavy water can also cause this....youve got far more additions adding sulphate in your sparge water than in your mash water. I know that many folks say to split your salt additions between mash and sparge (and some brewing software makes these calculations automatically) but I'm not sure myself that it isn't overly complicating things unnecessarily. Would be interesting to know what you were starting from in terms of a base water profile and what you were trying to achieve as a target.

I didnt think it was possable to oversparge, this could be the resason as I dont check/watch the run off I just sparge till im out of sparge water....
The source is Tesco Askbank - CA-17 NG -5 NA - 10 CL17 - SO4 - 14 HCO - 46
Target - Blond Ale - ca 75 mg 15 na 50 so 150 hcoo -40
style - ca 50-100 mg 0-30 na 0-100 cl -50-100 so 100-200 hco 0-80

Also you mention that your malt was several months old, crushed....possibly a problem but should be alright if never previously opened (you mentioned "probably not airtight" so I'm wondering if they were leftovers from a previous batch?)...in any case, a month old malt, never been opened will not be an issue.

Yes I tend to get a few KG of base malt and use it for 2 or 3 brews rather than order fresh each time. I need to invest in better storage either air tight tubs or a vac sealer I think.

The only other thing...your packaging process could be a source of an issue...you say you think your bottling needs improvment....in what areas do you think it might be "weak"? This is an area where weak process could lead to oxidation in beers with plenty of hops.

I feel its week only because I do it in the bacement with a racking cane adding suger to each bottle so has plenty of options to add air.

Other than the imbalance in the recipe, I'd still say that fermentation was the biggest source of your problem, with possibly some old ingredients contributing, along with a recipe that needed better balance towards the hop bitterness.

Cheers - so a few tweeks in the recipe and fixing what I'm doing wrong in the fermentation - I do think over pitching and over sparging are probably the main 2 for me to look at. Both things I did with this batch I'll just plan another in jan :)

I know when you brew limited volumes its sometimes difficult to give much away...but I'd be perfectly happy for you to send me a bottle of the revised brew for me to comment on.

Thanks that would be good to get an idea if I've acually improved on the last batch.