Help! Mash pH issues

[Pennine]

The last batch I used Chevallier in and the one I am brewing currently I have radically undershot my mash pH to 4.90. Beersmith estimated 5.43 which tends to be relatively accurate with almost any other malt. I also typically add 2ml of 75% phosphoric acid in most beers other than ones with significant roast additions.

What am I doing wrong??? I added some pickling lime to see if I could raise it a bit.

Pertinent info below.

 

[dave_77]

I had this recently and it was down to my PH meter needing recalibrating. You done this recently?

 

[Pennine]

I had this recently and it was down to my PH meter needing recalibrating. You done this recently?

I did, checked it before the brew and it was spot on.

 

[dmtaylor]

I think you answered your own question. Your mash pH would have been in a decent range. But then you added phosphoric acid on top of it, which brought pH down a bit more.

I am not familiar with Chevalier but that might play a role as well.

Maybe both things are contributing, as you'd guessed. I am not certain but wouldn't doubt it.

 

[Pennine]

I think you answered your own question. Your mash pH would have been in a decent range. But then you added phosphoric acid on top of it, which brought pH down a bit more.

I am not familiar with Chevalier but that might play a role as well.

Maybe both things are contributing, as you'd guessed. I am not certain but wouldn't doubt it.

Sorry I wasn't very clear, I did not add any acid to this batch today.

The comment was with other base malts I do typically add 2ml of acid and always get in the 5.2-5.4 range.

 

[foxy]

The last batch I used Chevallier in and the one I am brewing currently I have radically undershot my mash pH to 4.90. Beersmith estimated 5.43 which tends to be relatively accurate with almost any other malt. I also typically add 2ml of 75% phosphoric acid in most beers other than ones with significant roast additions.

What am I doing wrong??? I added some pickling lime to see if I could raise it a bit.

Pertinent info below.

View attachment 80496
View attachment 80494

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20% of crystal, caramel, will drop the pH especially the dark crystal. The reason I put any specialty malt in at mash out is I know where I am with pH of my mash just using the base malt. Doesn't matter if it is a stout or a bitter my salt additions are only dependent on the quantity of the base malt.

 

[Pennine]

20% of crystal, caramel, will drop the pH especially the dark crystal. The reason I put any specialty malt in at mash out is I know where I am with pH of my mash just using the base malt. Doesn't matter if it is a stout or a bitter my salt additions are only dependent on the quantity of the base malt.

You think it would drop it that significantly? Any ideas why beersmith would be so far off then, without and issue with other base malts?

 

[foxy]

You think it would drop it that significantly? Any ideas why beersmith would be so far off then, without and issue with other base malts?

I don't think any of on line calculators are so accurate to predict almost exactly the Ph value. 4.9 pH as mash pH goes isn't something to stress over.

 

[YeastFace]

What version of Beersmith are you using? Assuming 3?

I don't seem to have the water profile page on Beersmith 2 on my laptop, but have a lighter version on Beersmith 3 mobile. The water colour range field looks useful, but I have it on neither.

 

[Pennine]

What version of Beersmith are you using? Assuming 3?

I don't seem to have the water profile page on Beersmith 2 on my laptop, but have a lighter version on Beersmith 3 mobile. The water colour range field looks useful, but I have it on neither.

Yeah 3rd addition on my laptop. I always used brun water before but the 3rd addition made some improvements on the water calculator.

 

[Pennine]

OK the most recent brew, which is a lighter one, mash pH with no acid additions and 1g of gypsum was 5.29 main base malt was a local pale ale malt. 5.61 estimate in beersmith. I also reduced the water mineral contents by the low end of the range provided by the local water company.

I do not remember my mash pH dropping this much without acids even when I used RO water.

I am assuming moving forward should treat darker beers with Lime to raise the alkalinity and then skip any acid additions in lighter beers. Is this correct?

 

[Pennine]

Well just put them in Bru'n'water and its spot on. Guess I will be using it in the future.

Edit I was wrong, I didnt have the correct volumes they are pretty similar brunwater 5.55 beersmith 5.61.

Still odd?

 

[foxy]

OK the most recent brew, which is a lighter one, mash pH with no acid additions and 1g of gypsum was 5.29 main base malt was a local pale ale malt. 5.61 estimate in beersmith. I also reduced the water mineral contents by the low end of the range provided by the local water company.

I do not remember my mash pH dropping this much without acids even when I used RO water.

I am assuming moving forward should treat darker beers with Lime to raise the alkalinity and then skip any acid additions in lighter beers. Is this correct?

There is very little if any residual starch in 'none fermentable' grain therefore no reason to include it in the mash. Say for instance you are using the same base malt as you mentioned above the 1 gram of gypsum would still be all you need. either steep hot or cold or add the none fermentables at mash out.

 

[Pennine]

Alright some more data, I have done two more batches with Chevallier and then also using other various pale ale base malts.

Chevallier does actually drop my mash pH by about 0.35 from what Beersmith predicts. When I use other pale ale base malts from multiple vendors I am usually within 0.05 from what Beersmith states. Caramel malts do lower pH but not significantly, at most 0.1.

Chevallier is a unique malt, I am curious as to why it would be able to drop pH as much as it does?

 

[foxy]

Alright some more data, I have done two more batches with Chevallier and then also using other various pale ale base malts.

Chevallier does actually drop my mash pH by about 0.35 from what Beersmith predicts. When I use other pale ale base malts from multiple vendors I am usually within 0.05 from what Beersmith states. Caramel malts do lower pH but not significantly, at most 0.1.

Chevallier is a unique malt, I am curious as to why it would be able to drop pH as much as it does?

Just looking at the colour difference between MO and Chevalier and using both as base malts maybe that could be the difference. Crystal is only used in small quantities so won't make a deal of difference. Try a little experiment, put Munich light in place of the base malt and look what difference it makes to the pH.

I just made a Red IPA using Voyager SM40 which is a dark Munich designed as a single malt for amber and red ales. My salt additions was a poofteenth of bugger all as the malt dropped my pH considerably. Obviously I had to increase the grain bill because of the difference to a pale malt in diastatic power.

 

[user 43495]

The last batch I used Chevallier in and the one I am brewing currently I have radically undershot my mash pH to 4.90. Beersmith estimated 5.43 which tends to be relatively accurate with almost any other malt. I also typically add 2ml of 75% phosphoric acid in most beers other than ones with significant roast additions.

What am I doing wrong??? I added some pickling lime to see if I could raise it a bit.

Pertinent info below.

View attachment 80496
View attachment 80494

View attachment 80495

The ph isn't something I obsess over. For simple water treatment I keep stocks of gypsum and epsom salts. First, get to know the basic characteristics of your water. Some books have endless pages on the topic but I've never studied them in 45 years. If your kettle furs up regularly then there's hardness if not there's softness. Mine is the latter so when using roast malts I find I need no water treatment; for light and pale beers I use (per 5 galls) a half tsp epsom salts and 1 tsp gypsum. When I began brewing at my previous address and then here I did check using simple ph papers and the results were fine.

 

[Agentgonzo]

The ph isn't something I obsess over. For simple water treatment I keep stocks of gypsum and epsom salts. First, get to know the basic characteristics of your water. Some books have endless pages on the topic but I've never studied them in 45 years. If your kettle furs up regularly then there's hardness if not there's softness. Mine is the latter so when using roast malts I find I need no water treatment; for light and pale beers I use (per 5 galls) a half tsp epsom salts and 1 tsp gypsum. When I began brewing at my previous address and then here I did check using simple ph papers and the results were fine.

You should be able to get your local water report as all water companies provide them. They will give you most, if not all, of the information you need for brewing.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-read-a-water-report.99812/

 

[Bogdweller]

The ph isn't something I obsess over. For simple water treatment I keep stocks of gypsum and epsom salts. First, get to know the basic characteristics of your water. Some books have endless pages on the topic but I've never studied them in 45 years. If your kettle furs up regularly then there's hardness if not there's softness. Mine is the latter so when using roast malts I find I need no water treatment; for light and pale beers I use (per 5 galls) a half tsp epsom salts and 1 tsp gypsum. When I began brewing at my previous address and then here I did check using simple ph papers and the results were fine.

Well! This is exactly what I have done for around 40 years with, in my view, very pleasing consistent results. I read posts about water profiles and am bamboozled. Fair play though to those who go into the chemistry.