Hello- first forays into All Grain

[Richard2020]

Hello all,

I've posted here before with my first attempts at brewing AG from Get 'Er Brewed. I was really happy with the results. I've now brewed another AG batch from them, and today brewed one from Dark Rock, their Kolsch.

I seem to be running into two issues: My original gravity is around 10 points below the target OG: for today's it was meant to be 1051 and I got 1040.

The second issue is that I seem to have a lot of "trub" at the bottom of the boiler before I open the tap and put it into the FV. This is pretty unattractive and I've been leaving it in there. Probably 3-4 litres. it is also not going through the tap at the bottom of the boiler anyway- it just gets clogged up.

This means that I am getting about 20 litres per 23 litre batch- not the end of the world- and it is coming in at 0.5-1% ABV below target.

I was wondering if anyone could help?

I have been deliberately adding a little more water to the recommended mash and sparge amounts to give me just a few extra litres, to account for the trub- this may be why the OG is lower?

My numbers are:
- Target volume into FVL: 23 litres
- Evaporation during boil: 3 litres
- Debris/trub in boiler: 2 litres (say)
so at end of mashing I need to start the boil with 28 litres to end up with 23 litres
comprising:
- 18 litres mash in
- lost to grain 5 litres giving 13 litres after mash
- sparge to get to 28 litres means 15 litres sparging.

Does any of this make sense? What am I doing wrong?

Any help gratefully appreciated!

Thanks a lot,

Richard

 

[Buffers brewery]

Tell us about your process. Might give us a clue as to what you might be able to improve.

 

[Richard2020]

Thanks! Here goes (sorry, it's a bit long, but you did ask):

I put my Peco Electrim boiler onto a heat pad (just to give it a bit more insulation), add 18 litres of water heated to 72*, then I add the grain into a grain bag. Originally I tied the bag around the top of the boiler leaving it open, but there was never enough water to soak all the grain, so I now pull the neck of the bag off the rim of the Peco and knot it tight, and let it sort of bob about in the liquor. I stir the grain before doing this, to avoid lumps of grain. Mashing in a cold bag of grain (I know I should warm it to room temp, but I forget) at 72* gets a mash temp of roughly 66* I find.

I then leave it for an hour with a duvet around it. I set the Peco to 66* just in case the temp drops too much, but it rarely needs to fire up. Which is just as well because the grain bag should really be sitting on a hot Peco element... In the meantime I heat my water for sparging in a separate heater.

Once the hour is up, I lift the bag out of the Peco and set it on a big plastic strainer over the top of it. I start the Peco heating to 100* (this takes 45 mins or so). During this time, I do the sparging. I fill jugs with 3 litres of water each time at 78* and pour that over the grains in the bag in the strainer. I use the back of a plastic spoon to diffuse the water a bit. I take my time, usually takes 15-20 minutes for a full 16 litre sparge. Then I sit around waiting for the boil.

I remove the grains, feed them to the chickens, and wait some more for the boiler to get to a boil. I watch out for the hot break, then follow the hops recipe for the (generally) 1 hour boil. At 15 minutes, I throw in half a Protafloc tablet and my copper chiller to sterilise it. At flame out I let it sit for 10 minutes, then start to chill. I use the hot water from the chiller discharge to sanitise my FV and airlock etc while I wait for the wort to cool. I also fiddle about with whatever needs doing to the yeast, if anything. Some require rehydrating for 15 minutes etc.

Once the wort drops to around 20* (took 35 minutes or so today) I open the tap in the Peco and let the wort drain through into the FV. which I put on a chair below the bench. This nicely aerates the wort. This is a problem though- I had about 24/25 litres in the Peco after the boil but only ended up with 20 in the FV. There was a lot of flocculation and debris in the bottom of the Peco which just would not drain into the FV. I even got so annoyed I tried to syphon it with an entirely un-sanitised syphon (I know, I know) but it wouldn't even flow through that. When I came back to clean the Peco an hour later, it had clarified a bit and there were a few clear litres of wort sitting there laughing at me.

Once the wort is in the FV I take a gravity reading, stick in the sachet of PureBrew (if it's a posh Dark Rock AG kit) and pitch the yeast, and off it goes- at this time of year I put it in a builders' bucket with some water and an aquarium heater set to 20* and it ferments quite happily from there.

All thoughts appreciated!!

Richard

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

Hi R

Yes it all makes sense and seems logical

My original gravity is around 10 points below the target OG: for today's it was meant to be 1051 and I got 1040.

Stating the obvious your mash efficiency is less than it needs to be

I usually mash for 90mins, which will increase the sugar extracted. How accurate is your temperature control - this is critical in mashing

The second issue is that I seem to have a lot of "trub" at the bottom of the boiler

This issue of trub is a total mystery to me in my own brews and would be interested to hear other views

A mate of mine usually ends up with the same amount of trub as you do. Using the same equipment - not another model of the same equipment - actually the same equipment, I end up with less than 1L of trub. Just don't understand why

 

[phettebs]

Do you crush your own grain or get it pre-crushed? I had terrible efficiency early on and received advice that maybe it was the crush as the LHBS crusher is usually gapped a bit wider. I bought my own crusher and gapped it to about the width of a credit card and I typically get about 82% efficiency (aside from big beers).

My first question about the extra trub was going to be about proto/whirfloc. Looks like you have that covered. Do you whirlpool at all before draining? After my chill is complete, I will get a good whirlpool going just via stirring. I let it sit for 15 minutes. That collects the big stuff in the center of the kettle. I then use my siphon on the outer edge (I don't have a spigot on my kettle) and it's almost crystal clear until I get down to the very bottom. After fermentation is complete, I typically crash chill for a week and the remaining suspended stuff settles out nicely.

All of this of course, is equipment dependent.

Baz

 

[Buffers brewery]

A couple of thoughts..

1. Is your grain bag big enough? Sounds like it doesn’t reach far enough down into the boiler to properly dough in without tying it up and letting it bob around.
2. Do you stir the grain at all after dough in, say after 15 minutes or so?
3. How do you check the temperature during the mash? Is the boiler thermostat accurate enough?
4. Have you considered recirculating during mash?
5. You might look at your sparge process. It needs to be done slowly to allow the fresh water time to wash the lovely sugars off the grain.
6. Recirculating during the sparge might help.
7. Do you give your bag a squeeze?
8. If you use hop leaf, do you use a hop bag? It means you can recover the hops out of the wort with a squeeze to reduce trub.
9. Do you whirlpool at the end of the boil, during the chill?
10. Do you leave the cooled wort to stand before transferring to the FV? I leave it for about an hour to let everything settle to the bottom before transfer.

 

[smcc]

I would concur with Buffers, BIAB can have efficiency issues because your water may not get sufficient contact with the centre of the grain bag and no recirculation doesnt help either you could up your mash water by a little and stir at regular intervals during the mash to ensure things are all getting enough contact

 

[An Ankoù]

Could you give us an example of the malt bill of one of your 25 litre recipes?
Are you using pellet of leaf hops?
What is this trub like that clogs the tap? Is it mainly hop debris or is there grain in it?
Thanks

 

[Rochefort]

This issue of trub is a total mystery to me in my own brews and would be interested to hear other views

A mate of mine usually ends up with the same amount of trub as you do. Using the same equipment - not another model of the same equipment - actually the same equipment, I end up with less than 1L of trub. Just don't understand why

The quantity of trub from the cold break is related to the pH of the wort at the time of fining, the fining rate, and also how degraded the finings are by being in hot wort for 10-15 minutes (I do 5 minutes). Some people also don't get a proper hot break because they have the wrong pH or mineral content at the start of the boil. Some get an excessive cold break by over-fining or having a high pH at the end of the boil.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1995.tb00860.x

 

[An Ankoù]

I'm still fascinated to know how this "trub" would block the tap of an electrim boiler. I don't thing there room for, say, a bazooka filter and the kettle element as well. I would also be interested to know whether all this deposit is indeed precipitated from the beer or whether it's hop debris from pelleted hops.

 

[Richard2020]

Do you crush your own grain or get it pre-crushed?
Do you whirlpool at all before draining?

Thanks Baz- no it comes crushed from the seller (Get 'Er Brewed or Dark Rock). Nope, I don't whirlpool- I will deffo look into that though- that may be very helpful. Thank you.

A couple of thoughts..

1. Is your grain bag big enough? Sounds like it doesn’t reach far enough down into the boiler to properly dough in without tying it up and letting it bob around.
2. Do you stir the grain at all after dough in, say after 15 minutes or so?
3. How do you check the temperature during the mash? Is the boiler thermostat accurate enough?
4. Have you considered recirculating during mash?
5. You might look at your sparge process. It needs to be done slowly to allow the fresh water time to wash the lovely sugars off the grain.
6. Recirculating during the sparge might help.
7. Do you give your bag a squeeze?
8. If you use hop leaf, do you use a hop bag? It means you can recover the hops out of the wort with a squeeze to reduce trub.
9. Do you whirlpool at the end of the boil, during the chill?
10. Do you leave the cooled wort to stand before transferring to the FV? I leave it for about an hour to let everything settle to the bottom before transfer.

Um: 1. Possibly not (I bought the one for the bin, but I am starting to think not)
2. Nope. Will do!
3. Boiler thermostat plus electronic meat thermometer (!)
4. No- will look into that too. thanks!
5. Thank you- will do. there is a biting point between optimal sugar and getting bored stupid. I suppose that's where a "brew-day pint" comes into the equation!
6. OK- thank you- will look at that too (there's a lot to look at I am realising)!!
7. No, well, unless you mean Mrs Richard S in which case that's a terrible way to talk about her
8. Pellets- but even then no bag. I suspect that's the blockage problem.
9. good spot- same as Baz- I detect a common theme here
10. no, I sling it in as soon as possible in a flurry of excitement that I've managed to brew 20 litres of ACTUAL BEER. You can see that the novelty has still not worn off. it's like some sort of alchemy.

thank you!

Could you give us an example of the malt bill of one of your 25 litre recipes?
Are you using pellet of leaf hops?
What is this trub like that clogs the tap? Is it mainly hop debris or is there grain in it?
Thanks

Here you go: this is the Get Er Brewed ESB recipe- it's fairly punchy:

• 4.920kg Marris Otter Ale Malt
• 0.270kg Crystal 150 Malt
• 0.180kg Brown Malt
• 0.030kg Roast Barley Malt

pellet hops.
It's totally hop debris I think. It's green and leafy- like a load of dumped dried oregano. Other herbs are available. Thank you!

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks Baz- no it comes crushed from the seller (Get 'Er Brewed or Dark Rock). Nope, I don't whirlpool- I will deffo look into that though- that may be very helpful. Thank you.


Um: 1. Possibly not (I bought the one for the bin, but I am starting to think not)
2. Nope. Will do!
3. Boiler thermostat plus electronic meat thermometer (!)
4. No- will look into that too. thanks!
5. Thank you- will do. there is a biting point between optimal sugar and getting bored stupid. I suppose that's where a "brew-day pint" comes into the equation!
6. OK- thank you- will look at that too (there's a lot to look at I am realising)!!
7. No, well, unless you mean Mrs Richard S in which case that's a terrible way to talk about her
8. Pellets- but even then no bag. I suspect that's the blockage problem.
9. good spot- same as Baz- I detect a common theme here
10. no, I sling it in as soon as possible in a flurry of excitement that I've managed to brew 20 litres of ACTUAL BEER. You can see that the novelty has still not worn off. it's like some sort of alchemy.


Yep. 90 grams of pellet hops leave a load of debris. I made a lager
thank you!


Here you go: this is the Get Er Brewed ESB recipe- it's fairly punchy:

• 4.920kg Marris Otter Ale Malt
• 0.270kg Crystal 150 Malt
• 0.180kg Brown Malt
• 0.030kg Roast Barley Malt

pellet hops.
It's totally hop debris I think. It's green and leafy- like a load of dumped dried oregano. Other herbs are available. Thank you!

Yep. 90 grams of pellet hops leave a load of debris. I made a pilsner yesterday using a similar quantity of Saaz pellets which I put in fine-mesh bags ( a Sainsbury's produce bag and the legs of nylon tights for the late hops) and I still had a good two litres of mississippi slime at the bottom of the boiler when I'd done even the the lion's share of the crud was in the bags. I'm really fed up that you can't get leaf hops in 1 Kg bulk packs anymore.
I'm not sure you can do a whirlpool in an electrim boiler. Isn't there an exposed kettle element at the bottom?

 

[Clint]

Hi R

Yes it all makes sense and seems logical



Stating the obvious your mash efficiency is less than it needs to be

I usually mash for 90mins, which will increase the sugar extracted. How accurate is your temperature control - this is critical in mashing


This issue of trub is a total mystery to me in my own brews and would be interested to hear other views

A mate of mine usually ends up with the same amount of trub as you do. Using the same equipment - not another model of the same equipment - actually the same equipment, I end up with less than 1L of trub. Just don't understand why

Regarding mash time....I've adjusted a recipe recently to reduce the mash and boil to an hour each to save a bit of time. My efficiency went up slightly and I gained a couple of points. Hard to tell on one change I know... perhaps I paid more attention to the sparge process.

 

[Tim Wilkes]

The original tap on the Peco is rubbish. I've swapped the one on mine for a better (metal) one and fitted a bazooka. I also bought a false bottom that keeps the bag off the element and strains the wort when running off into the FV. Not much gets through that lot! Might also be worth upping your mash volume a bit and reducing your sparge to compensate.

 

[Richard2020]

I'm not sure you can do a whirlpool in an electrim boiler. Isn't there an exposed kettle element at the bottom?

there is- don't know- will experiment. assume you can though if you put on a false bottom?

The original tap on the Peco is rubbish. I've swapped the one on mine for a better (metal) one and fitted a bazooka. I also bought a false bottom that keeps the bag off the element and strains the wort when running off into the FV. Not much gets through that lot!

Thanks! Do you have a link for the tap/bazooka? That sounds like the ticket.

 

[Tim Wilkes]

Arrived in about 10 days:
￡11.18 20%OFF | Homebrew Weldless Bulkhead Keg Convert Kit Stainless Steel 304 2-piece 1/2" Ball Valve with 6" or 12" Bazooka Screen Beer Mash
https://a.aliexpress.com/_uf4u1R

 

[Richard2020]

Thanks! Just the ticket as you say!!