Hazy Yeast. What does it bring to the party?

[Northern_Brewer]

Which brings us full circle.
My OP was asking about CML Haze, which appears to be have the low water characteristics of Five but leaves a slight haze. My question was, Why?

And I go back to what I've been talking about - people use yeasts like that not *because* of the haze, but they can live with the haze because it's not important, they're more concerned with the flavour it brings.

 

[An Ankoù]

Maybe beerco.com.au but £13 shipping means it’s hardly cheaper than CML

Beerco indeed, but I was after NZH-101 and Superdelic hops. I'm a bit of an experimenter, as I've mentioned before, I tried 100g of each and they really are nice so ordered some more. The Galaxy just happened to be on special offer at a time when a thread on Stone and Wood selling out to Lion appeared in the A&NZ forum. Again curiosity got the better of me as their Pacific Ale seems to be a bit of a legend.

 

[Bzee]

I think galaxy is a bit ruff in large amounts and before it gets to settle down, then its fine. Ive made DKs Galaxy delight a couple of times a while ago and both times very resinius until it settles and drops bright. So im not sure about useing it profusly in a hazy beer. I've not let beta glucosidase loose on it which could be interesting.

 

[An Ankoù]

And I go back to what I've been talking about - people use yeasts like that not *because* of the haze, but they can live with the haze because it's not important, they're more concerned with the flavour it brings.

Lets start again.

CML Five
US Ale Yeast. Suitable to brew low ester ales with a clean palate
Attenuation: 76-80%
Fermentation: ideally 17-28°C (63-82°F)
Flocculation: High
What to expect? Similar to US-05

CML Haze
US Ale Yeast. Suitable to brew ales with low esters, leaving a slight haze.
Attenuation: 75%
Fermentation: ideally 15-20°C (59-68°F)
Flocculation: Low
Max ABV 9% in 20 litres- Pitching Rate: 50g/100 litres
What to expect? Similar US-05 but leaves a slight haze

At first glance these yeasts seem almost identical except for the haze, but the lower floc, the lower attenuation and the ferm temp range are all going to make a difference. I would expect a side-by-side fermented with identical worts to be significantly different.
So what is the haze for? Does the suspended yeast keep hop products and the the remnants of wort protein in suspension, giving the beer a hoppier flavour and a fuller mouthfeel- whenver I've opened a bottle too early and it's a bit cloudy, the beer is more coarse and bitterer than the finished beer should be; or does the yeast itself bring something to the table? I'd always thought that cloudy (designed to be cloudy) beers got their flavour and mouthfeel from the proteins and oils in adjuncts and the oils in suspension from a massive amount of late and dry hops. Do these need to bind with suspended yeast to prevent their dropping out of suspension? Does a cloudy NEIPA, for example have to use a low floc yeast or would it be just as good if it was made with CML Five, for example?

So I get what cloudy/hazy beers are about, but I don't get the function of hazy yeasts unless the yeast itself adds something to the flavour.

Worth listening to craft beer and brewing podcast laura burns ofomega yeasts discussion about " stable beer haze " .

Podcast 238

Discusses, grains, hops, yeast and timings etc.

Thanks. Did you intend to include a link? If not I'll try and look it up.

I've got a few sachets of Five in the fridge and one of Haze, but I've got a long list of beery ventures to follow before I do a side by side.

Thanks all for your contributions. Perhaps it's me being thick.

 

[Sadfield]

My view on the above is that there's potentially two things going on.

Haze is possibly less flocculant than Five, and therfore will leave a slight haze in whatever is brewed.

Secondly to this, Haze is less attenuative and could possibly have biotransformation properties, making it more suitable to modern hazy/NEIPA style ales, than Five.

I wouldn't read too much into CMLs vague descriptions.

 

[An Ankoù]

I think galaxy is a bit ruff in large amounts and before it gets to settle down, then its fine. Ive made DKs Galaxy delight a couple of times a while ago and both times very resinius until it settles and drops bright. So im not sure about useing it profusly in a hazy beer. I've not let beta glucosidase loose on it which could be interesting.

Just looked up GD. It uses a lot of hops and a MUCH higher IBUs than Pacific Ale. I know Galaxy as a hop and find it not unlike CItra. I think GD might be overpowering.

 

[Sadfield]

Haziness is a stylistic element that consumers expect, a some brewers work to put into beer. https://escarpmentlabs.com/blogs/resources/dude-wheres-my-haze-advice-for-hazy-ipas

 

[An Ankoù]

Secondly to this, Haze is less attenuative and could possibly have biotransformation properties, making it more suitable to modern hazy/NEIPA style ales, than Five.

Another minefield. I'll stick with Five- whatever Five is. If it's repackaged US-05 I won't expect much biotransformation if it's repackaged BRY-97 then I will. Whatever biotransformation actually means on the specific context of a particular hop and a particular yeast!!
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/list-of-yeasts-that-do-biotransformation.667547/
Time to cut the jibber-jabber and get the beer brewed before I lose the will to live.

 

[Sadfield]

it's repackaged US-05 I won't expect much biotransformation if it's repackaged BRY-97 then I will.

US-05 VS Bry97 from Brulosphy.

Slight haze to the later. Could well be Five vs Haze.

 

[An Ankoù]

View attachment 83923
US-05 VS Bry97 from Brulosphy.

Slight haze to the later. Could well be Five vs Haze.

That makes sense.
Was there any difference in the taste?
I'll look for the article.

 

[Sadfield]

That makes sense.
Was there any difference in the taste?
I'll look for the article.

It's Brulosphy, so I expect no one could tell (statistically).

 

[Agentgonzo]

That makes sense.
Was there any difference in the taste?
I'll look for the article.

Over the span of 12 days, 15 people participated in this xBmt including BJCP provisional judges, a professional brewer, experienced homebrewers, and longtime craft beer nerds. Each taster was blindly served 3 samples, 2 fermented with US-05 and 1 fermented with BRY-97, then asked to select the one they believed was different from the others. While 9 (p<0.05) participants would have had to correctly identify the BRY-97 beer as being different to imply significance, only 6 were capable of doing so.

Given they are both apparently the chico strain, I'm not too surprised:
https://beermaverick.com/the-complete-guide-to-the-chico-strain-of-yeast/I'm sure that they are genetically slightly different and technically produce slightly different characteristics (as you can see objectively in the photo), but they are obviously very similar in the flavours they produce - which is not too surprising if they are both from the same strain of clean-fermenting (ie, not a lot of flavour) yeast.

 

[Pennine]

Given they are both apparently the chico strain, I'm not too surprised:
https://beermaverick.com/the-complete-guide-to-the-chico-strain-of-yeast/I'm sure that they are genetically slightly different and technically produce slightly different characteristics (as you can see objectively in the photo), but they are obviously very similar in the flavours they produce - which is not too surprising if they are both from the same strain of clean-fermenting (ie, not a lot of flavour) yeast.

I know Northern Brewer says 97 is chico but here it's not related? In the new wheel it drops out though so I am not sure.

https://beer.suregork.com/?p=4030
Lallemand BRY-97 – Surprisingly, this strain doesn’t group with the Beer 1 US strains, but rather in the Mixed group. As supposedly one of the key strains in the story of US yeast going from East to West, what is this doing here and not in the main US group?

 

[clib]

What is hazy yeast anyway? Is it a thing?

 

[An Ankoù]

What is hazy yeast anyway? Is it a thing?

I might have introduced the idea some three pages ago or I might not have. My memory's a bit hazy these days.

 

[clib]

I might have introduced the idea some three pages ago or I might not have. My memory's a bit hazy these days.

So it's just an idea.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Lallemand BRY-97 – Surprisingly, this strain doesn’t group with the Beer 1 US strains, but rather in the Mixed group. As supposedly one of the key strains in the story of US yeast going from East to West, what is this doing here and not in the main US group?

That's based on old sequencing , where it seems some labels got mixed up. These things happen in the big sequencing projects - there's a really obvious case in the Strasbourg 1002 Genomes where it looks like Artois and Orval (IIRC) are mixed up. But the Dunham lab have resequenced BRY-97 and confirmed it's a Chico, which fits the reported history that it was descended from BRY-96 and informally named as [BRY-96 +1]

 

[Pennine]

That's based on old sequencing , where it seems some labels got mixed up. These things happen in the big sequencing projects - there's a really obvious case in the Strasbourg 1002 Genomes where it looks like Artois and Orval (IIRC) are mixed up. But the Dunham lab have resequenced BRY-97 and confirmed it's a Chico, which fits the reported history that it was descended from BRY-96 and informally named as [BRY-96 +1]

Thanks, I thought there was something off about that comment after the discussion on the 001 thread.

 

[An Ankoù]

I've been thinking of making a batch of Pacific Ale from Stone & Wood. Here's the description from their website:
A hand-crafted pale ale from Stone and Wood in Byron Bay, Australia, Pacific Ale gets its name from the brewery's home next to the Pacific Ocean. Made with a combination of Australian barley and wheat this is a hazy, bready beer with juicy, fruity notes created by Galaxy hops.

Mission accomplished and beer brewed. It's getting pitched this morning after an overnight cool. Lots of angst over the recipe as all of those out there seem to differ wildly from what's written on the side of the can/bottle. Hoping for a 4½-4¾ % session IPA, light colour, low bitterness, exploding galaxies.
We'll see.

 

[An Ankoù]

Job done and had a taste last night. It's a very interesting beer. Not my kind of thing at all, but I love it.
Here's the link: Posts #24 and #25
https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/stone-and-wood-sells-out-to-lion.103274/post-1581310