Hazy IPA clearing!

[ChilledGecko]

Hi guys,
Can anyone shine any light on this?
I made a Malt Miller Jon Finch NE IPA, description and ingredients below.

Description

This recipe is based on the recipe from Beer Craft by Jon Finch. Due to the rarity of being able to buy Galaxy this hop has been replaced with Cashmere.
A hazy juicy IPA, with late hop additions.

Ingredients
Crisp Pale Ale Malt (5000 grams)
Crisp Crystal Malt (300 grams)
Crisp Pale Wheat Malt (300 grams)
Flaked Oats Including Husk (300 grams)
Citra Pellets (110 grams)
Cashmere Pellets (100 grams)
Mosaic Pellets (80 grams)
NBS Ale Yeast 12g (1 packs)


At dry hopping I also added 1kg defrosted Mango and 1kg defrosted pineapple lightly massaged in a mesh bag.
All now kegged without incident using oxygen free transfer.

It smells of the additions and tastes as expected but the cheeky thing has started to clear.

Wold this be due to the added fruit or something else?

Enquiring minds would love to know!

Atb

Kevin

 

[Brew_DD2]

How big was the dry hop?

Seems quite an unusual recipe for a NEIPA. Not common to see crystal malt used, and the flaked adjuncts seem quite low.

For haze stability you want a proteinous wort and lots and lots of whirlpool and dry hops.

 

[ChilledGecko]

Hi,
the dry hop had the following;

40 g — Citra
40 g — Mosaic
30 g — Cashmere

The rest of the hops were all very late boil.
30 g (10 IBU) — Cashmere — 10 min
30 g (14 IBU) — Citra — 10 min
Whirlpool
40 g Cashmere — 80c
40 g Citra — 80c
40 g Mosaic — 80c

 

[The Baron]

did you use kettle finings e.g whirlfloc etc?

 

[ChilledGecko]

did you use kettle finings e.g whirlfloc etc?

Nope, boil to whirlpool to chill to fermentation vessel. Untouched as nature intended

Water was set to hoppy IPA in the Brewfather app and dosed accordingly from RO / local water 50/50 mix with suggested mineral additions to suit.

The beer looked good, very orangy and 'thick' prior to dry hop and fruit addition.
It has nearly got FG within 3 days using S-04.

It's still very drinkable, but bizarrely clear.

 

[The Baron]

Nothing weirder than beer and fermentation, I have had so many strange things happen over the years. Brew one beer it clears in days same beer takes weeks or only gets clear on the last couple of pints. Who knows?

 

[ChilledGecko]

Fair enough, I just wanted to understand if the fruit addition has somehow caused the beer to clear as it was the only point where I deviated from the recipe.

Thanks

 

[The Baron]

I would have thought the fruit would add to the initial haziness but does usually clear after some weeks.
I have used fruit in some beers and they are usually really hazy even when kegged but do clear after a month or so apart from that can not shed any further light on it but never mind its a good beer anyway

 

[DocAnna]

The clearing problem is likely due to the enzymes in pineapple - bromelain - which quite rapidly digests the proteins which contribute to the haze. It’s one of the problems with working with fresh or frozen pineapple in cooking. The protease enzyme is destroyed by heating - doesn’t need to boil, just over 60 deg C will do it if you wanted to try again.

Anna

 

[The Baron]

The clearing problem is likely due to the enzymes in pineapple - bromelain - which quite rapidly digests the proteins which contribute to the haze. It’s one of the problems with working with fresh or frozen pineapple in cooking. The protease enzyme is destroyed by heating - doesn’t need to boil, just over 60 deg C will do it if you wanted to try again.

Anna

There you are one of the boffins has given a possible reason

 

[ChilledGecko]

Curse that pineapple!
Thanks @DocAnna I do tend to have an inherent need to understand the why, you have salved that itch!

Note to self, no pineapple in hazy beers...
.... double up on the mango

 

[chillipickle]

If you want some tropical fruit, mango/pineapple flavours, try some idaho 7 and el dorado hops in your neipa's....opal fruits made to make your mouth water :p

 

[531Man]

Curse that pineapple!
Thanks @DocAnna I do tend to have an inherent need to understand the why, you have salved that itch!

Note to self, no pineapple in hazy beers...
.... double up on the mango

Unfortunately, mango (my favourite fruit) as well as pineapple and other tropical fruits have proteases in the same group, so will all do the same protein haze clearing thing:
Actinidain (EC 3.4.22.14, actinidin, Actinidia anionic protease, proteinase A2 of Actinidia chinensis) is a type of cysteine protease enzyme found in fruits including kiwifruit (genus Actinidia), pineapple, mango, banana and papaya. This enzyme is part of the papain-like peptidase C1 family.

 

[Wynne]

Papain is a similar proteolytic enzyme from papaya and has been used to improve haze stability in beers. Unfortunately, it also breaks down foam-promoting proteins causing the beer to lack an enduring head. When you eat fresh pineapple etc, effectively the fruit is trying to digest you as you are trying to digest it!

 

[531Man]

Papain is a similar proteolytic enzyme from papaya and has been used to improve haze stability in beers. Unfortunately, it also breaks down foam-promoting proteins causing the beer to lack an enduring head. When you eat fresh pineapple etc, effectively the fruit is trying to digest you as you are trying to digest it!

Just Google-found that Ginger contains a similar protease to all of these as well:
Zingibain, zingipain, or ginger protease (EC 3.4.22.67) is a cysteine protease enzyme found in ginger (Zingiber officinale) rhizomes.[1][2][3] It catalyses the preferential cleavage of peptides with a proline residue at the P2 position.

 

[DocAnna]

I wasn't aware of mango, papaya and ginger containing proteases! The pineapple protease can be a real problem in cooking as adding fresh pineapple even in a few minutes can mess up sauce consistency. I've since read up on this a bit and found that the proteases in Pineapple and Papaya can be used commercially to 'chill proof' beer and will stop chill haze forming ... which is a thought to maybe try and use this function on purpose sometime in the future...hmmm.

 

[The Baron]

Some good info on this thread chaps

 

[Wynne]

I wasn't aware of mango, papaya and ginger containing proteases! The pineapple protease can be a real problem in cooking as adding fresh pineapple even in a few minutes can mess up sauce consistency. I've since read up on this a bit and found that the proteases in Pineapple and Papaya can be used commercially to 'chill proof' beer and will stop chill haze forming ... which is a thought to maybe try and use this function on purpose sometime in the future...hmmm.

I don’t think bromelain and papain are widely used commercially as they destroy foam-promoting proteins. Brewer’s Clarex (sold by Murphy’s) contains an enzyme derived from bacteria and is claimed to remove haze-forming proteins without affecting head formation and retention. Personally, I just use finings and lagering and rarely have haze issues.

 

[ChilledGecko]

Thanks all,
I think the 'take away' for me is to aim for the flavour using hops rather than directly from fruit.

The beer in question still tastes good but was not the look I was going for.

Great input from everyone, I've learnt a lot!

 

[Wynne]

Thanks all,
I think the 'take away' for me is to aim for the flavour using hops rather than directly from fruit.

The beer in question still tastes good but was not the look I was going for.

Great input from everyone, I've learnt a lot!

Out of interest, how is the head?