Good head retention

[EskiBrew]

On my wesite I have a page showing how I brew. There is a photo showing me dropping the cooled wort into the FV from height as it leave the CFC chiller so as to get plenty of oxygen into it.

I have received a comment on that webpage page saying:

the proteins that create a stable head only work once. All that frothing denatures those proteins and leads to poor retention in the final product

Would anyone care to comment as to whether that is right or not :wha:

He goes on to suggest using an Oxygen source and an airstone to inject O2 directly into the beer which probably is better (I know Vossy does this) but the question is - is he correct :hmm:

 

[calumscott]

Sounds like nonsense to me.

Head is just bubbles having risen to the surface and not popped. To "not pop" you simply need an agent in the liquid which will increase the surface tension of the liquid lots. Basically what you have is two liquid surfaces (inside the bubble and outside) with no real liquid to speak of beween those surface films.

If you have such an agent in the beer, it's in the beer. It will form lasting bubbles ad-infinitum... (ish). The act of forming a bubble isn't going to alter that chemical at all unless it is degraded by exposure to an element present in air. And if that's the case, think about how little of it is present in the head and how much of it is present in the beer...

...denaturing of protein is on the whole (and if my biology education still serves) done by heat, enzymes (other proteins) or other chemical catalysts. Forming a bubble film?

Nah. I just don't buy it.

 

[FatherChristmas]

Sounds like rubbish to me. Any chance of a link to your website?

 

[Aleman]

There is a lot of talk about 'Foam Once Proteins' or FOP's which is the basis of this thoery. Certainly I know of very few commercial breweries worrying about it. Indeed if my latest experience at Wibblers is anything to go by it is encouraged (although being a southern brewery most of the product is served under gravity or via hand pump 'southern style )

I love the fact that the guy suggests using a O2 source and a diffuser . . . have you seen what that produces :rofl: . . . . Foam . . . . Massive quantities of it, in fact so much that in order to have sensible FV sizes you MUST use an anti-foam product to keep it under control . . .

In fact I no longer use an in line O2 diffuser, and inject O2 directly into the FV while filling it with the wort, as it controls the foam

 

[EskiBrew]

Sounds like rubbish to me. Any chance of a link to your website?

No problem - here - it's nothing much

Thanks Tony - I've never used O2 and an airstone so had no idea it produces even more foam :shock:

 

[FatherChristmas]

Sounds like rubbish to me. Any chance of a link to your website?

No problem - here - it's nothing much

Thanks Tony - I've never used O2 and an airstone so had no idea it produces even more foam :shock:

Nice site, homebrew and machining, two of my interests! What kind of machining do you usually do? I'm always in and out of my dad's workshop, he has a colchester student lathe and a dore westbury mill among other things.

 

[calumscott]

That chiller...

...is that a coil of microbore copper with the wort running through with an garden hose outer jacket through which to pump the cooling water...?

 

[joe1002]

That chiller...

...is that a coil of microbore copper with the wort running through with an garden hose outer jacket through which to pump the cooling water...?

In short, yes. Have a look here :thumb:

 

[BarnsleyBrewer]

The proteins that create a stable head only work once. All that frothing denatures those proteins and leads to poor retention in the final product

Load of rubbish,(my opinion) :wha: I fill my fermenters and shake the hell out of them to introduce air and never had an issue with head retention, the only time I've ever had a problems with retention was with over carbonation of bottles and kegs years ago.

BB

 

[calumscott]

That chiller...

...is that a coil of microbore copper with the wort running through with an garden hose outer jacket through which to pump the cooling water...?

In short, yes. Have a look here :thumb:

Sweet!!! I think I like that design!

Any comments on efficiency? Do you stick 90-something degree wort in the top and get 20 degree wort out the bottom every time? What sort of flow rates of wort/water?

 

[evanvine]

My CFC cools 23 litres from boiling to pitching temp in 11 minutes!

 

[calumscott]

My CFC cools 23 litres from boiling to pitching temp in 11 minutes!

So 2 litres of wort per min going down...

...how much water is going back up to acheive that or don't you measure?

 

[evanvine]

...how much water is going back up to acheive that or don't you measure?

It works, not on a meter, so don't give a damn.

 

[graysalchemy]

...how much water is going back up to acheive that or don't you measure?

You set the rate of water by achieving the highest temp comming out of the cooling water then dropping the flow until the temp cannot be maintained then you are at about your most efficient flow rate. :thumb:

Thats what I do anyway :lol: :lol:

 

[evanvine]

You set the rate of water by achieving the highest temp comming out of the cooling water then dropping the flow until the temp cannot be maintained then you are at about your most efficient flow rate.

The faster the flow the better the cooling.
The colder the cooling water the better the cooling (winter/summer).
I am going to take some convincing about your theory GA!

 

[EskiBrew]

You set the rate of water by achieving the highest temp comming out of the cooling water then dropping the flow until the temp cannot be maintained then you are at about your most efficient flow rate. :thumb:

That's what I do too :thumb:

I usually get two or three sink fulls of hot water out of the CFC outlet during the cooling of 20 litres.
I don't usually time how long it takes to cool though :hmm:

 

[EskiBrew]

Nice site, homebrew and machining, two of my interests! What kind of machining do you usually do? I'm always in and out of my dad's workshop, he has a colchester student lathe and a dore westbury mill among other things.

Thanks :thumb:
I have an old Myford M-Type lathe and a Denford Triac miller

I usually use them for hobby work (recently made an Aluminium Cylinder puzzle) but also use them for some work prototypes too - mainly machining plastic cases to fit electronics.

Occaisionally I make homebrew bits when requested - last thing was a few more Wort Aerators which a few members now have //www

 

[dennisdk2000]

...denaturing of protein is on the whole (and if my biology education still serves) done by heat, enzymes (other proteins) or other chemical catalysts.

+1. As far as I remember from bio-chemistry, these are the factors that cause denaturing of proteins. If oxygen causes proteins to denature then it would do so regardless of whether the oxygen exposure happens as the beers splashes into the FV or with an air-stone later on! Had he suggested that oxygen at certain temperatures could have negative effects of head retention, then I'd be more inclined to believe it.

There is a lot of talk about 'Foam Once Proteins' or FOP's which is the basis of this thoery.

I'm not really familiar with FOPs, but it sounds like the theory is suggesting that once the bubbles pop, they can't reform, much like a burst balloon can't be re-inflated, but I've never heard of proteins being denatured by mechanical stress!

So I say it's non-sense!

Dennis

 

[graysalchemy]

I usually use them for hobby work (recently made an Aluminium Cylinder puzzle) but also use them for some work prototypes too - mainly machining plastic cases to fit electronics.

Now you need to make a cryptex :hmm: :hmm:

 

[graysalchemy]

You set the rate of water by achieving the highest temp comming out of the cooling water then dropping the flow until the temp cannot be maintained then you are at about your most efficient flow rate.

The faster the flow the better the cooling.
The colder the cooling water the better the cooling (winter/summer).
I am going to take some convincing about your theory GA!

Something to do with that there thermo dynamics I fink. :lol: :lol:

I am sure someone knows.................


Just not me :lol: :lol: