Getting Legal

[Braindead]

How much effort is involved in getting legal to brew and sell beer.
My local bottle and tap shop
Northern Beer Temple (amazing beer selection) is desperate to sell my beers.
Any advice appreciated

 

[MickDundee]

Will they let you go into their brewery and do a collab? That way you’d be operating under their license IIRC. My local microbrewery have done this with what they call “gypsy brewers” before.

 

[Braindead]

Theres 4 breweries in my town of Wigan, I contacted them about a cuckoo brew but none replied.
Maybe its the fact they are more real ale cask breweries than anything interesting as they never replied.

 

[MickDundee]

Theres 4 breweries in my town of Wigan, I contacted them about a cuckoo brew but none replied.
Maybe its the fact they are more real ale cask breweries than anything interesting as they never replied.

Ah, I hadn’t realised that it wasn’t a brewery’s tap room wanting to sell it. What about some of the Manchester breweries?

 

[Druncan]

If you are brewing at home it means the full range of enforcement bodies need to be satisfied and 3rd party liability insurance. I do everything except bottle and cask, as the risk assessment and logistics are a nightmare for me.

However, kegging is no problem and lower risk. I am currently planning and designing a 200l brewery to build over the winter in our guesthouse. But I will not touch bottles or cask until much later down my business plan.
Could you not supply kegs of your beer for them to sell into growlers at the point of sale?

 

[Leon103]

Somethings to consider is letting your mortgage company know, house insurance, water company. Also check if there any covenants on the property

 

[Braindead]

If you are brewing at home it means the full range of enforcement bodies need to be satisfied and 3rd party liability insurance. I do everything except bottle and cask, as the risk assessment and logistics are a nightmare for me.

However, kegging is no problem and lower risk. I am currently planning and designing a 200l brewery to build over the winter in our guesthouse. But I will not touch bottles or cask until much later down my business plan.
Could you not supply kegs of your beer for them to sell into growlers at the point of sale?

Hes also said he'd happily put Corny kegs on too

 

[Oneflewover]

I don't have any constructive advice, but wish you all the best with it.

 

[Leon103]

To make it viable you will need more than one customer. Has you brewing at home anything you brew outside of the deal with the bottle shop will also be classed and commercial so will be subject to taxes etc

 

[simon12]

If your making it on a 100l or less scale as a hobby and selling it you shouldn't need planning permission but its worth checking with the council. When you register with HMRC then you cannot make homebrew anymore without paying duty on it as duty becomes payable on all the beer you make regardless of were it ends up. The main form you have to fill in is a bit of a nightmare but not quite as bad as it initially looks. The council will check you from a food hygiene perspective and may want you to make changes, if your brewing in a garage you will have to put in a hand wash sink with hot water. Also trading standards will want to check how you measure ABV and that you pass on allergy info, when I was checked for this the guy obviously didn't know how to measure ABV, if you bottle they will check your labels conform. To sell trade you need to register on AWRS which had just come in when I was involved and the system didn't work so it got delayed so can't comment further. You need to keep records of all your grain purchases with batch numbers and which batches it went in to.
In all its a lot to do to sell the odd batch here and there but is you want to it is do able. I have likely missed a few points to and much depends of what your council thinks about it.
There a bit of relevant info in this thread https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/getting-a-brewing-license.76355/

 

[Clint]

Sounds a PITA if doing it from home.. especially if you can no longer brew for yourself without paying tax on it ..

 

[Druncan]

@simon12 For me it's mainly HMRC that need you to do the ABV for your monthly return with certified saccharometers as it is used with the %HL to determine how much you pay in duty. TSO's are mainly concerned with ABV when doing a reference test on bottle filling by average quantity and determining the volume gravimetrically. Some TSO's do have food enforcement responsibilities and will make sure that food labels (beer bottles) are correct and legible and submit samples for analysis, but ingredients are still exempt I think except to declare allergens? EHO's cover all the food hygiene /sanitisation and expect a full HACCP and workplace safety with cleaning chemicals that can be a real pain to complete. Although do-able with kegs and casks!

 

[Braindead]

Jeez, thanks all for the help, sounds like a ballache lol

 

[Duxuk]

Since you're from Wigan you should perhaps buy the Prospect Brewery. I think they want £299,000 for it! I had a bottle of their Silver Tally last night and it was pleasant but I can do better myself. I imagine they ran into financial problems when they increased their size and would need to up current production a lot to be viable again.

 

[Metacomet]

Theres 4 breweries in my town of Wigan, I contacted them about a cuckoo brew but none replied.
Maybe its the fact they are more real ale cask breweries than anything interesting as they never replied.

Try some of the smaller breweries in Manchester, I'm sure there'd be one happy to do a collab with you especially if you go with pre-orders from your local tap house.
I'd suggest trying Beer Nouveau. They have a setup for doing small batches and would probably sell any extra in their own tap house.
Contact them through twitter or go along to the Manchester Homebrew club which is sometimes held at the brewery and Steve, the owner nearly always attends.

 

[simon12]

@simon12 For me it's mainly HMRC that need you to do the ABV for your monthly return with certified saccharometers as it is used with the %HL to determine how much you pay in duty. TSO's are mainly concerned with ABV when doing a reference test on bottle filling by average quantity and determining the volume gravimetrically. Some TSO's do have food enforcement responsibilities and will make sure that food labels (beer bottles) are correct and legible and submit samples for analysis, but ingredients are still exempt I think except to declare allergens? EHO's cover all the food hygiene /sanitisation and expect a full HACCP and workplace safety with cleaning chemicals that can be a real pain to complete. Although do-able with kegs and casks!

I never had HMRC wanting to check our ABV measurements, they did ask us to get a bank to guarantee our payments or pay the duty and do a return as soon as its liable but when we started sending them 2 returns and payments a week they changed there mind. I don't remember doing a HACCP but we likely had one as we took over a working brewery but had to re register for everything anyway even for change of ownership.

 

[Druncan]

We set up as duty suspended. So I don't pay until I release (and no bank g/tee). But I think HMRC 226 is the same for all ABV duty determinations? Either use the distillation method, or use a suitably calibrated saccharometer (adjusted for the temperature and then table f constant applied) We send samples for analysis @ Brewlab for our due dilligence and compare results. If HMRC ain't happy the officer can take a sample and unlimited civil action if they suspect your ABV is inaccurate. However we have been HMRC since June 2016 and never seen a HMRC officer yet! Maybe when we apply to increase our volume this winter they may be more interested in a trip out to us?

 

[Braindead]

Thanks so much for you help guys, all this is very interesting and slightly overwhelming

 

[Druncan]

Thanks so much for you help guys, all this is very interesting and slightly overwhelming

Don't worry m8. I started out exactly the same :hat: The co-brew is your best option. It also gives you a chance to find out how the brewery is doing it. I found HMRC don't offer a help and guidance service. They seem to expect you to be qualified and know the ropes. They will answer direct queries,,, as long as you know exactly what to ask,,, Tough at first,,, Keep going though!

 

[Braindead]

Thanks Druncan, think Ill send a few samples out to local breweries and try my luck at a Gypsy Brew