Getting Berry Confused..

[Wynott]

Ok, so I tried a CJJB recipe for Parsley, and as a rookie, put in the 4lb of sugar recommended. Of course, it turned out a very sweet wine, so I am regarding it as Dessert Wine, and it's not at all bad, there is a pleasant 'grassy/herby' taste to it.

This week, I am attempting an aperitif (again from the Beginners Book) - 6 sevilles, 6 oranges, but this recipe only uses 1kg sugar. My initial SG is only 1.060 (the Parsley started at 1.144 and I managed to get it down to 1.030).

I'm concerned in case the aperitif turns out insipid, and I calculate only around 7-8% potential.

Any thoughts/comments would be very welcome.

 

[johncrobinson]

Hi Wynott.

You can read a hydrometer without problems,So when making a wine why not make it to a "standard" gravity of say 1.085sg
This will get you to about 12%abv, and will ferment right out with just about any wine yeast going.

Follow the recipe as regards the other ingeredients then add sugar to get to your standard gravity.

Its pretty much what I and beer brewers do,You can then decide if you want it stronger/sweeter later.

Wines dont tend to keep well at less than 10% And getting over 15% can be problematic,(Both at the start and end of fermentation)
So as you can see there is a quite a small window of acceptable starting gravities.

 

[Wynott]

Thanks John, that's a good idea, and helpful info. However, I have since realised that I didn't give the whole story. In following the recipe I added 6 pints of water to the bucket, then 4 days later (when it had been fermenting) I transferred into a DJ and topped up to 4.5l as advised. This is when I got the reading of 1.060. I will keep an eye on it, and maybe add increments of 4.5oz sugar at a time, to raise it by about 0.010 as it goes along. Thank goodness for calculators!

 

[johncrobinson]

Hi Wynot,I have posted a reply about Berry on the raisin a question or two thread. (should have gone here)

Berry without doubt knew what he was talking about.I can only asume the errors are down to the printers.

 

[johncrobinson]

In my copy of 130 new wine making recipies by Berry nearly all his 1,gall recipies use 2.0-2.5 lb sugar to the gallon,Which is about right.!!
So it seems during many reprints and updates some rougue copies are floating around.

 

[Wynott]

Hi John, yes I'm sure he knew his onions - so to speak. I had a look at my books, and quite interesting. My copy of 'First Steps' was first published in 1987, I have the ninth edition 1996, it's copyright CJJB, and he was still alive then, so I would think he might have cast an eye over it. My '130 New' is the Second Edition 22nd impression and it looks as if the 1st edition was around 1970. 3lb sugar is common in this version, and 4lb not unusual, so no idea what was going on. They both originated from the 'Amateur Winemaker', apparently.

DDC (Dear Departed Cyril) doesn't mention syrup much, and only refers to 'sugar' in the recipes. Next time I will make up 1kg of sugar syrup and aim for around 1.085 to kick off.

One other question: I seem to remember a couple of times reading about fermentation times for WOWs and country wines of e.g. 2 weeks/2 months but have to say mine take longer than that. The medlar, for example, went into the DJ (bletted) in December, and was not bottled until September. I do keep an eye on the sediment, usually racking 1st time @ 2 months, 2nd time @ 3 months, and if necessary a 3rd time before fining/filtering. Is this about right?

I'm going to polish off one of my earlier bottles tonight. I made elderberry, and blackberry, last year. Both were a bit thin (and dry 0.985), so I blended them and added syrup to 1.000. Much improved from their original state.

 

[johncrobinson]

Yes I know about the descrepancy in fermentation times,For example:

With say a WOW using temp control,starter,nutrient.Fermentation can be done in well under a week

Many books seem to talk about fermentations going on for months and with modest alcohol levels.!!!!!

There are many factors at play here,
I think the biggest is temperature, In my centerally heated home a demijohn at floor level
will be around 50 F while the main room stat is set to 70-74 F.
This makes a huge difference to speed of fermention.
I dont think must and brewbelt heaters were common 50+ yrs ago.
Also away from the warmth of the open fire homes in those days were much cooler.

We also use nutrient and energisers that were not on the market 50+ yrs ago.

Another factor is the yeast,Lots of wines were fermented with bakers yeast,which slows down above 8%abv
and actually struggles badly to get 12-13%abv.

 

[johncrobinson]

In regard to your fermentations I suspect the time is extended because of the slow leach of sugars from the fruits
Also you have been using rather high starting gravities which will also slow things down.

 

[johncrobinson]

I like Your idea of adding all your sugar as syrup

If you invert the syrup as well even better

 

[tribalfather]

has anyone read updated First Steps? Sugar levels are down. sugar more refined etc. the CJJB'c time of writing

 

[johncrobinson]

RE.>Tribalfather,Now you mention it my C.J.J.Berry is called "130 NEW winemaking recipes"

I have been trying to cast my mind back to the 60s-70s to try to remember what was the "taste" was in those days.
At 63yrs old I am just a bit too young, But I do seem to remember some very sweet products been popular, Things like Martini, sweet Sherry,and Lambrusco were sickly sweet by todays standards,
It was after all the time of the start of the countrys love affair with sugar. (Post rationing).

Perhaps Berry was just reflecting the tastes of the day.?

Any REAL old timers care to comment.???

 

[Wynott]

.....when lunching with some friends at a restaurant recently, I asked the (very young) barman what they had as an aperitif. He offered 'brandy/whisky/gin' in that order, and when I asked for sherry, offered Bristol Cream.... fortunately I spotted a bottle of seville-flavoured Gin at the back
I can recall in the 60s and 70s all sorts of noxious drinks - Babycham, Pony, Cherry B, Martini etc. I can remember being thought out of step and/or pretentious for enjoying Campari and soda/bitter lemon. Wine generally wasn't available in the pubs we frequented, and in restaurants it was usually Black Tower or similar.

 

[Wynott]

With say a WOW using temp control,starter,nutrient.Fermentation can be done in well under a week

I have put one of my WOWs on a head pad now, see how much longer it takes. I'm not that hopeful, it's grapefruit, and on tasting yesterday it wasn't up to much.

 

[Wynott]

I like Your idea of adding all your sugar as syrup

If you invert the syrup as well even better

.....I'll try that later, one step at a time...

 

[kelper]

My parsnip wine recipe called for boiling the sugar/water/raisin infusion for 45 minutes but I can't see what difference it made. Anyone know the logic?

 

[Mr_S_Jerusalem]

My parsnip wine recipe called for boiling the sugar/water/raisin infusion for 45 minutes but I can't see what difference it made. Anyone know the logic?

Probably just some odd attempt at extracting more flavour.

Although I can’t see how it would be any different than leaving it on the pulp for a week.

Apart from the fact boiling anything with a **** load of sugar in for a large amount of time is mildly dangerous lol.

Although I know that to extract the flavour from parsnips (and carrots and potatoes and bananas) you have to boil them for a while. But why the raisins and sugar as well is another question.

Also as everyone knows you can dissolve even a kg of sugar in boiling water in about 5 minutes or less, so why the 45 minutes for that?

 

[johncrobinson]

Boiling the sugar especialy with anything with any acid in it breaks down the sugar and makes it easy and faster for the yeast to digest.A sort of "superfood".

It takes about 30 mins or so boiling (simmer) to complete the inversion
It is then known as "invert sugar"

It is most helpfull and of use when making wine with a higher alcohol content.

 

[kelper]

What does caster sugar become? The instructions were to boil for about 45 minutes when it should start to foam.

 

[Mr_S_Jerusalem]

Boiling the sugar especialy with anything with any acid in it breaks down the sugar and makes it easy and faster for the yeast to digest.A sort of "superfood".

It takes about 30 mins or so boiling (simmer) to complete the inversion
It is then known as "invert sugar"

It is most helpfull and of use when making wine with a higher alcohol content.

Totally did not know that, nice one

 

[johncrobinson]

Re Kelper>. Caster sugar---Just the same.

For the technically minded yeast produces an enzyme which splits ordinary sugar allowing the yeast to use it.
As the alcohol concentration increases it stresses the yeast to produce this enzme.By pre-spliting the sugar (inverting) it saves the yeast from spending energy doing it itself. Therefore allowing the yeast to tolerate higher alcohol levels.

Again because of less work for the yeast fermentation will also get going quicker at the START of the fermentation.
So using invert sugar is all round win win.

Also yeast does vary in its ability to split ordinary sugar some strains infact cant do it very well at all.
I think ????this mainly applies to some beer yeast.

It gets the name invert sugar as it polarises light in the opposite direction to ordinary sugar.