fuggles and cascade

[harrylyle]

hi fairly new to brewing, just wondering if this hop schedule will be hoppy enough for a american pale ale and whether or no fuggles have any place in apa's.

23L OG 1046

60 min 40g cascade, 40g fuggle
15min 15g cascade, 15g fuggle
flame out 15g cascade, 15g fuggle (half hour steep)
Dry hop 30g cascade 30g fuggle

thanks.

 

[HisDudeness]

I believe williamette which is used loads in American beer is their version of fuggles so yes it should be OK as long as your after earthy spicy type flavour in the beer. If you want more fruitiness/citrus taste you might want to adjust quantities to favour cascade but the overall hopping level would be in the right ballpark for an APA. Are you using a calculator for IBUs? 80g at 60mins is a lot but depends on your hops AA value

 

[HebridesRob]

You can use any combination and amount of hops you like. It's your beer.

That said (since you ask)...
American IPA beer style:
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style14.php#1b
"a citrusy, floral, perfume-like, resinous, piney, and/or fruity character derived from American hops"

Fuggles hops...
http://www.britishhops.org.uk/fuggle-class-aroma-tall/
"It has a wonderful, delicate, minty, grassy and slightly floral aroma."

So, it probably wouldn't be in character for your beer. It certainly isn't normal to use Fuggles in American IPA.

Since Cascade hops are derived from Fuggles you'd expect they'd go together. Cascade works with Goldings. No real idea though.

According to my software American IPA should be 40-70 ibu & your combination of hops hits 40.

 

[terrym]

Suggest you read this which may help....
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=483777#post483777

 

[harrylyle]

thank you for all the replies! this is such a useful forum! I calculated the IBU's to be 45 (without taking into account the 15 minute hop addition). Im brewing an american pale ale not an India APA. My last brew was dry hopped with whole leaf goldings (100g) and that cast an aroma like black pepper and mixed herbs, just checking fuggles wont be the same, i do not like goldings.

 

[Hoppyland]

You can use any combination and amount of hops you like. It's your beer.

Totally agree with all Rob says - and if you really want to "clone" an American IPA then Fuggles aren't the way to go.
However, if you want something interesting, tasty - with American overtones, then yes, this sounds good. Cascade is a very different hop to Fuggles, so using the two together should give you a more complex and therefore subtle hoppy flavour and aroma.
I haven't used a Fuggles/Cascade combination but I have used Fuggles or Goldings in combination with Centennial, Motueka and Ahtanum, with very good results to my palate.

What I strongly suggest, though, is do not boil Fuggles for 60 mins! They contribute little bitterness, and afer 60 mins boil not much of their flavour or aroma will be left :-?
Cascade is a bit stronger on the bitterness front, but even then I wouldn't boil it for 60mins either. Basically, your suggested recipe would be putting 80g of hops in your boiler - and after 60mins you'll have moderate bittering, and nearly all the flavour and aroma will have gone.
My recommendation is to use a very high alpha-acid hop (which means a very bitter hop) for your long boil. I use Warrior (alpha-acid about 16 whereas Fuggles is about 4. Which means you only need one-quarter of the quantity of Warrior to give the same bitterness). Warrior is well known for providing bitterness without harsher flavours. There are others such as Magnum, or even Citra is pretty high alpha. You might only need 20g of Warrior for your 60min boil.
Otherwise, your dry-hop looks very good to me. This should give good aroma.

A personal suggestion: I'd do a 60 min boil with just high alpha hops.
Forget the 15min step (again just me...).
At flameout add your 75g Cacade & 75g Fuggles. (I'd leave them sitting in the hot wort for half an hour before cooling). Do you plan on cooling your wort, though? - I don't do this, but it seems most people do. If like me you don't actively cool, but let the temperature of the wort drop naturally, then I'd suggest cutting down your bittering hop to maybe 75%, because hops continue to add bitterness until the temperature falls well below boiling point.
Good luck with whatever you decide - but hell, most well-made beers taste really good!

 

[harrylyle]

Decision made :) thankyou, yeah i know fuggles have a low AA but i dont really want to use all of my cascade on the bittering, i realized my mistake as soon as i ordered my ingredients! but hey i dont want to pay £6 delivery on some £4 hops, ill wait until i need some more grains.

 

[Hoppyland]

My last brew was dry hopped with whole leaf goldings (100g) and that cast an aroma like black pepper and mixed herbs, just checking fuggles wont be the same, i do not like goldings.

If you don't like Goldings, you won't like Fuggles. Too similar.
Having said that, I use loads of both (as well as american/NZ hops nowadays) and "black pepper, mixed herbs" sounds a bit odd to me. Where did you get them? Were they vacuum packed in foil? What was the year of harvest??

 

[harrylyle]

not vacuum packed, in flimsy looking transparent bag. they were 2014 i think.

 

[terrym]

but hey i dont want to pay �£6 delivery on some �£4 hops, ill wait until i need some more grains.

Ballihoo Homebrew do £2.50 postage on HB stuff up to 2kg in weight. They do a fair range of hops at good prices, and can get hops not normally in stock within a few days. I use them and things arrive well packaged after a couple of days. And, I have no connection!

 

[Simonh82]

I used Fuggles Cascade and Simcoe in my second extract brew. Simcoe provided the bitteeing and then I used all three for late boil and flame out additions. I dry hopped with lots of Cascade and Simcoe.

It turned out really well and got lots of complements.

If I'm honest I'm not sure what the Fuggles brought to the party as they were over powered by the big American hops.

To maximise the hop flavour/aroma I might be tempted to move the 15 minute additions and split them between your flame out and dry hops.

I would worry about anywhere that sold there hops in flimsy plastic bags. That's very poor practice and they will lose a lot of flavour and bittering potential that way. I would avoid them in future.

 

[harrylyle]

turned out to be a great combination of hops. tasted very alike Darkstar Hophead but stronger. thanks for the help guys.