freeze fermenting?

[Personal91]

Another thing worth knowing is that if you are legally able to freeze concentrate in your neck of the woods you'll want to save that last gallon of churned up yeast on the bottom. The pectin haze remains, but a cone strainer filled with shaved ice works a treat to remove the "yeast mud". That's 17% more whatever if you're using a 6 gallon carboy. Heck, even
if you don't concentrate the first 5 gallons you could still save it and use it just to experiment on freeze concentrating for kicks. If it doesn't come out well you haven't lost anything except time.

The champagne yeast I use is brilliantly efficient, the problem is it is also EXPLOSIVE! if I don't chill bottles of a raspberry TC I made then it will try to escape and when I say try it will spray you like a skunk - a tasty raspberry skunk at that the problem is tho that unless chillers the yeast breaks up and 'contaminates' the rest of the bottle!

 

[AppleJack]

Mention has been made of the different legislative regimes, for the production of spirits, in the UK and the USA. Much nearer to home, there a significant difference between the UK and France. But I won't elaborate here and risk the naughty step! However if anyone is interested in what happens in France, send me a PM, with your e-mail address, and I'll send you a copy of an article on the subject that I wrote for an English language magazine published in France.

I'm very much interested in reading the piece PH, but how do I go about sending ya a PM? Cheers, AppleJack.

 

[Wouter]

I really couldn't imagine any government instance caring that you did a super small scale production of >20% beer.
In the Netherlands they don't even care about distilling in general.

 

[simon12]

As for legality to quote Myqul "Yup, we've had this discussion before. Freeze distilling isnt true distilling (and not against the law to do so) so it's ok as far as we're concerned" from this thread https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/ag56-freeze-concentrated-eisbock.72990/

 

[-Bezza-]

As for legality to quote Myqul "Yup, we've had this discussion before. Freeze distilling isnt true distilling (and not against the law to do so) so it's ok as far as we're concerned" from this thread https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/ag56-freeze-concentrated-eisbock.72990/

If you read the provisions in the law (ALDA 1979) it's really not clear. It says "No person shall manufacture spirits, whether by distillation of a fermented liquor or by any other process, unless he holds an excise licence for that purpose under this section (referred to in this Act as a “distiller’s licence”)."

So is this "manufacturing spirits"? It's not "distillation" but is "other process". I'd like to know the definitive answer according to law.

Anyway, whilst interesting if you're that way inclined, there's no point flogging a dead horse - there seem to be enough references to this being fine and I really can't imagine HMRC being inclined to check the contents of someone's freezer! With the email from BrewDog being out in the wild, I would think we would have heard if there were any issues with this.

 

[simon12]

I was looking for what HMRC defined as spirits and found this "
‘spirits’ means, subject to subsections (7) to (9) of ALDA -

• spirits of any description which are of a strength exceeding 1.2 per cent;
• any such mixture, compound or preparation made with spirits as is of a strength exceeding 1.2 per cent; or
• liquors contained, with any spirits, in any mixture which is of a strength exceeding 1.2 per cent - ALDA s1(2);"

from https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/spirits-production/spir3040
This "
Law
No person shall manufacture spirits, whether by distillation of a fermented liquor or by any process, unless he holds an excise licence for that purpose under this section(referred to in this Act as a ‘distiller’s licence’) – ALDAs12(1).

Policy and Application
Any one who manufactures spirits by any process must hold a distiller’s licence. We do not license the production of spirits for own use (i.e. it is not permitted)"
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/spirits-production/spir3050

And most worryingly this"
Law
2.9 Save as provided by or under this Act, any person who, otherwise than under and inaccordance with an excise licence under this Act so authorising him:

(a) manufactures spirits, whether by distillation of a fermented liquor or by any other process; or

(b) uses a still for distilling, rectifying or compounding spirits; or

(c) distils or has in his possession any low wines or feints; or

(d) not being a vinegar-maker, brews or makes or has in hispossession any wort or wash fit for distillation,

shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding 5 onthe standard scale – ALDA s25(1)

Without prejudice to any other requirement as to the production oflicences contained in the Customs and Excise Acts 1979, if any person who is the holder ofan excise licence to carry on any trade or to manufacture or sell any goods fails to produce his licence for examination within one month after being so requested by an officer his failure shall attract a penalty under section 9 of the Finance Act 1994 (civil penalties) – CEMA s101(4)

Policy and Application
It is an offence for any person who does not hold a distiller’s licence to;

• manufacture spirits; or
• use a still for distilling spirits; or
• distil or be in possession of any low wines or feints; or
• brew, make or have any wort or wash fit for distillation (unless licensed as a brewer or wine producer, registered as a cider maker or carrying on the trade of a vinegar – maker)."

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/spirits-production/spir3080

 

[-Bezza-]

The law is circular though in that "spirits" is defined as "spirits".

Probably need to look at what the Oxford English dictionary provides as a definition, or take a look at Hansard.

 

[Bigcol49]

Problems with definitions:

Railway Porter to old Lady (travelling with a Menagerie of Pets)
"Station master say, Mum, as cats is dogs and rabbits is dogs but this 'ere tortis is an insect, so there aint no charge for it"

 

[simon12]

If I went to court for freeze distillation I would argue that a concentrated beer is not a spirit and the thing I posted before would mean by "manufactures spirits, whether by distillation of a fermented liquor or by any other process" means making something to copy a drink that was normally distilled. Also I would say concentration by removing some of the non alcoholic part is totally different thing to removing mainly the alcoholic part so is not in any way a process of distillation. In the closing speech I would also quote my previous quote Myqul said it was OK. Though if the case was bought by HMRC I think they can rule on it without a court case and just fine you.

 

[Ajhutch]

If I went to court for freeze distillation I would argue that a concentrated beer is not a spirit and the thing I posted before would mean by "manufactures spirits, whether by distillation of a fermented liquor or by any other process" means making something to copy a drink that was normally distilled. Also I would say concentration by removing some of the non alcoholic part is totally different thing to removing mainly the alcoholic part so is not in any way a process of distillation. In the closing speech I would also quote my previous quote Myqul said it was OK. Though if the case was bought by HMRC I think they can rule on it without a court case and just fine you.

I agree. If you made one of those Alcotel ‘vodka’ kits to 20% with a turbo yeast and then freeze concentrated it, that could be easily conceived as an attempt to make a spirit. An eisbock, not so much.

 

[StevieG83]

There is a guy on Youtube who made an applejack using this method to approx 49%

Yes i seen that video. Not sure if its legal in northern ireland but i am going to try it next month.
I only ferment in gallon demi johns so will make 4 gallons to start and if it turns out well i will invest in a bigger container.
This is the video i watched.