Force carbonating with 60/40 gas?

[Alex12]

Hi to everyone, I'm new to this site but thought someone might be able to help as everyone seems so helpful!
I have a draft system that we have set up for pub lager and cider kegs.
Having brewed my own cider from apples in our own orchard last year and having purchased a corny keg I am now wondering if I can force carbonate with the 60/40 gas we have already? (60% co2, 40%N) or do I need to get some pure co2?
I have bottled quite a lot of it and primed it and it has turned out great (well I'm impressed with my first attempt!) but would like to put some on draft and I cant find anything on the internet about whether carbonating with 60/40 would be a good idea or not.
Has anyone out there tried this or do you think it is just not worth it at all?
Any help would be appreciated
Thanks

 

[LeeH]

As you know mixed gas is for cream flow beers so it much use you you unless you have an insanely high serving pressure. N2 doesn't easily absorb into your beer and in your case you don't want it too.

A bottle if co2 is 13 quid so don't bother messing around with the mixed IMHO.

 

[LeeH]

Where's the stupid edit button!!!???

 

[LeeH]

I'm not allowed to correct my fat fingered iphone typos?

Why????????????

Sod this, I'm off.

 

[Alex12]

Thanks for the advice Lee but actually 60/40 gas is designed for serving lager and cider, this is 60% co2 and 40%N. The mixed gas that is used for bitters is 70/30, i.e. 70%N and 30%co2, very different.
As we already have the mixed gas and it is mostly co2 I was wondering if it would work.
You said the nitrogen would not be absorbed so presumably it would do no harm to be there especially as the is more co2 than N?
As we are in the hospitality industry the tech services guy from the brewery set up our system but none of us know much about force carbonating as its not something we have ever had to do in the bars!
I can get hold of co2 but as we are working with a commercial system the gas bottles are very big and I don't know that I have room for a second one. I have brewed 125L of my own cider last year and although I have bottled a lot of it I want to put some on to the pumps we have on the bar for my OH 40th birthday party.
I could prime them but the half point of putting them on to the system is that I don't have to!

 

[KOzric]

I think you should be fine force carbing with the 60/40, in such high CO2 mixed gasses the nitrogen will not dissolve and is mainly there to give a stable pour in places where you cannot guarantee a stable keg temperature. If you have a very stable temperature for your kegs I would advise moving over to CO2 as it is a much cheaper gas in the long run. Your standard serving pressure in a 12degree cellar is usually 35psi (this does depend on variables though) but you may want to up this slightly and agitate the cider daily to ensure a good absorption. Also you will struggle to force carbonate a warm keg, it's much easier cold.

Good luck with your cider :grin:

 

[KOzric]

Your standard serving pressure in a 12degree cellar is usually 35psi (this does depend on variables though)

I should say 35 psi would only apply to mixed gas as you are in reality you are getting a much lower partial pressure from the CO2. If using pure CO2 you may want to use one of the online calculators to figure out the pressure you want, usually it's about 9-15psi though and you can just trial and error as you're unlikely to get too much fobbing with your cider unless you're way out.

 

[LeeH]

Thanks for the advice Lee but actually 60/40 gas is designed for serving lager and cider, this is 60% co2 and 40%N. The mixed gas that is used for bitters is 70/30, i.e. 70%N and 30%co2, very different.
As we already have the mixed gas and it is mostly co2 I was wondering if it would work.
You said the nitrogen would not be absorbed so presumably it would do no harm to be there especially as the is more co2 than N?
As we are in the hospitality industry the tech services guy from the brewery set up our system but none of us know much about force carbonating as its not something we have ever had to do in the bars!
I can get hold of co2 but as we are working with a commercial system the gas bottles are very big and I don't know that I have room for a second one. I have brewed 125L of my own cider last year and although I have bottled a lot of it I want to put some on to the pumps we have on the bar for my OH 40th birthday party.
I could prime them but the half point of putting them on to the system is that I don't have to!

My apologise. So the 60/40 is for serving larger at higher pressure over longer distances? I didn't pay attention to the finer points of your post.

 

[LeeH]

Anyway, there's isn't that much difference, you still will need higher pressure at ambient then co2. And you will get some N2 in your solution.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[Alex12]

Thanks for all the advice guys.
We use the 60/40 as the keg just sits under the bar so temperature varies a lot and with the mixed gas this doesn't matter, (the beer is always cold once its been through the cooler anyway)
Think I will give it a go as I have all the equipment anyway and will let you know how it turns out, just didn't want to ruin all my hard work with the cider press etc but I guess I wont know until I try. Don't think it can be that bad!:pray:

 

[rewerByelsnraB]

Best yeast for stouts??

 

[Alex12]

Hi Lee, just to let you know as you asked 60/40 gas is used in all pubs for lager and cider. The distance is not important but yes you do have to have the pressure up higher, not sure the technical reason for this though.
The mixed gas is used because it reduces fobbing, reduces the sensitivity to temperature and generally just makes it easier to deal with.
In commercial bars co2 is only used for the soft drink bag-in-box systems. As I'm new to home brewing I am not sure why everyone uses pure co2 other than it is easier to get hold of, cheaper and best for force carbonating. (Think I might have just answered my own question there!)
Thanks again
Alex

 

[LeeH]

Good to know that Alex, thanks.

 

[LeeH]

What's fobbing?

 

[KOzric]

Fobbing is the excessive amount of foam you get when pouring beer from an unbalanced system (or when you pour Tennants, which seems to be the most inconsistently gassed beer going). On another note, all the pubs I've worked in have used pure CO2 for lager and cider, though they have always had controlled cellars and shortish lines.

 

[Alex12]

I've never known pure co2 be used for lager and cider in a commercial bar. All the pubs and hotels I have worked in have used the mixed gas even with a controlled cellar and short lines. It just means there is less wastage so bigger profits