Flat lifeless cask ales are they deliberate?

[simon12]

A few months ago a new micropub called four hops opened in Reigate, I went the weekend after it opened and got a cask ale and it was totally flat. I put this down to they hadn't got there setup right yet and went back a few weeks later and got a perfect condition cask beer. Then about 10 days ago a local pub reopened after having there cellar and lines all redone, I tried all 3 of there cask ales and 1 was totally flat while the others are fine. The next day I went to 4 hops again and got a totally flat beer again. None of the flat beers tasted past there best they just needed some life in them.
So I think they must just be made like it, but why? They would all have been good beers with a little life in them. Do some people prefer it like this what do you guys think?

 

[jceg316]

I'm not terribly into cask beer for that reason. There are so many cask beers I've had which taste like I'm drinking dust, or I think "if this was fizzy it would be so much better".

I'm a big fan of stouts and porters though, and these go well in cask a lot of the time. A pale ale or IPA needs to be fizzy though.

 

[Dads_Ale]

A few months ago a new micropub called four hops opened in Reigate, I went the weekend after it opened and got a cask ale and it was totally flat. I put this down to they hadn't got there setup right yet and went back a few weeks later and got a perfect condition cask beer. Then about 10 days ago a local pub reopened after having there cellar and lines all redone, I tried all 3 of there cask ales and 1 was totally flat while the others are fine. The next day I went to 4 hops again and got a totally flat beer again. None of the flat beers tasted past there best they just needed some life in them.
So I think they must just be made like it, but why? They would all have been good beers with a little life in them. Do some people prefer it like this what do you guys think?

They are not made that way. A good cask beer should have life in them. Not over fizzy but not flat and lifeless.

I do know what you mean as my local micro pub does serve cask beer that I find below par and am often thinking this would be a good pint if it had a bit of life in it.

I think temperature control has a lot to do with it. On a recent trip to the Margaret, Herne area, visiting the hoard of micro pubs in the area I found the quality of the beers was excellent. So what did they have that my local micro pub not have? They all had temperature controlled rooms (all different) to store the beer in, whereas my local only uses cooling jackets. I'm sure not being able to control temp effectively leads to loss of CO2 and hence a flat, lifeless pint.
Plus cider at room temp, which is up to 30c at the moment is not that pleasant :-(

 

[DoctorMick]

Sounds like the pub are rushing them out without giving them time to condition. As far as I know, beer usually leaves the brewery unconditioned so the pub have to leave them a few days to carb up and settle before putting them on.

 

[Dutto]

Hmmm! "Different strokes for different folks." springs to mind.

I quite like a "cellar temperature" beer and really don't mind too much if it loses its head after a few minutes.

What I do loathe is the ice-cold and "gassy" beers that they serve in some pubs; even those that serve "real-ale".

To combat these effects I generally order two beers to begin with, take my time to drink the first and then get another one in before I start the second one. It works and as a result I can enjoy most of the decent beers that are on sale.

I agree entirely with the comment that "cider at room temperature" is not that pleasant. However, in a well run establishment (a rarity nowadays) there can be an eight to ten degree difference between the ambient temperature in the bar and the "cellar temperature"; even without chillers.

 

[peebee]

A few months ago a new micropub called four hops opened in Reigate, I went the weekend after it opened and got a cask ale and it was totally flat. I put this down to they hadn't got there setup right yet and went back a few weeks later and got a perfect condition cask beer. Then about 10 days ago a local pub reopened after having there cellar and lines all redone, I tried all 3 of there cask ales and 1 was totally flat while the others are fine. The next day I went to 4 hops again and got a totally flat beer again. None of the flat beers tasted past there best they just needed some life in them.
So I think they must just be made like it, but why? They would all have been good beers with a little life in them. Do some people prefer it like this what do you guys think?

As "Dads_Ale" says, Good cask beer should have life in them. But should never need to be described with the "F" word.

It is one of the things that allowed the appalling emergence of 60-70s keg "beer" and sham lagers from which we still suffer today. It requires SKILL to manage cask beers, and many publicans don't have it.

 

[Sandimas]

As it's a micropub, I imagine it's served staight from the barrel, much like at a beer festival i.e. gravity fed. So it's going to be flat unless I'm missing something?

I enjoy these beers, but only when they're relatively cool. My local has a barrel in the pub and with this recent hot weather, the beer is about 22C (and flat) so it's not good. But in the autumn/winter/spring months I prefer this type of beer, I really don't like a gassy pint.

 

[foxy]

If you want to get into cask beer a good book is this one.

‘Cellarmanship’ by Patrick O'Neill 4th edition 2005 published by CAMRA
A clear and thorough explanation of the vital role of the cellarman in making sure you get a decent pint. It details the range of things a good cellarman should know, and the fastidious good practice which should be followed. Since so many pubs are not prepared to train staff properly, it's hardly surprising that you so often meet poorly served, poor quality beer. I initially didn't like one famous brew, which I am now very fond of, purely because I had only encountered it in a pub where - I now understand - it was badly kept. Even if you're not looking to work in a pub, you need this book to show you what goes on behind the scenes, and help you understand what to expect from a good pub. Highly recommended!

 

[Dexter101]

I always thought it was a conscious choice by the brewer, like the difference between flat and sparkling ciders... Don't mind it with some beers I have tried, with others it feels like something is missing.

 

[simon12]

As it's a micropub, I imagine it's served staight from the barrel, much like at a beer festival i.e. gravity fed. So it's going to be flat unless I'm missing something?

I enjoy these beers, but only when they're relatively cool. My local has a barrel in the pub and with this recent hot weather, the beer is about 22C (and flat) so it's not good. But in the autumn/winter/spring months I prefer this type of beer, I really don't like a gassy pint.

In the micro pub it is served from a tap but the same type as a keg so it must get there by gravity, but whatever they got 1 good beer with this system. I'm not sure but I think being straight from the barrel normally means no head but not flat.

 

[simon12]

I always thought it was a conscious choice by the brewer, like the difference between flat and sparkling ciders... Don't mind it with some beers I have tried, with others it feels like something is missing.

That is what i'm thinking now but before I thought it was bad cellarmanship if thats a word.

 

[terrym]

I understood conditioned pub beer kept in a 'normal' cask is carbonated but only equivalent to ambient pressure. If it's kept at 14*C it will have slightly more dissolved CO2 than beer at 20*C. Either way there isn't much CO2 so you could describe the beer as nearly flat.
If you get a pint served straight from the cask tap that's all you get, nearly flat beer with little head.
If you get beer served through a hand or electric pump, air get injected into the beer and you should get a head and a perception of gas in the beer.
Am I missing something or am I wrong somewhere?

 

[peebee]

This is an interesting thread, but not for reasons probably hoped for by the OP. CAMRA is the organisation set up to defend cask ales when it was in danger of being swept away by some seriously naff "keg". Cask ales are in danger again but this time by a more insidious replacement with "craft beer" (the danger being some "craft beer" is actually worth drinking - but in 20 years time I think we can guarantee it will have evolved into seriously naff "keg" again and no-one will notice it happening). But this thread illustrates horrendous failings in CAMRA's continuing campaign:

A dire lack of education, such that a large number of drinkers don't know what cask ale is or how it should be presented.

The aforementioned book ‘Cellarmanship’ by Patrick O'Neill is certainly a good start, if a bit heavy for a lot of folk. Something a bit lighter is my own study of cask beer created so I could emulate it with home-brew (I know people do this with "breathers", polypins, and so forth, but I wasn't impressed). WARNING the methods I advocate most certainly will not win support from CAMRA, but the introductions and rationalising will provide a good background to what cask ale is all about.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv5tRM-5EQUhZbDNPdmV1bWc

The thread it was discussed in was : http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60134