Flameout hops & utilisation

[MyQul]

When adding flame out hops they need to steep for about 20 mins at 80C. But I was wondering if this extra 20 mins has any effect on the earlier hop additions in particular the bittering addition. Afaik/iirc hop utilisation for the bittering only stops once you reach 70C or below. So doesn't the extra (steeping) time add IBU's?

 

[HisDudeness]

Good question MyQul was wondering about this myself

 

[MyQul]

I've just been reading about hop tea as well and I understand this imparts flavour? So I'm thinking would using the flame out additon (as I undersatand this is for flavour rather than aroma?) as a hop tea instead and cut out any worries/consideration about the extra 20 mins causing extra IBU's to be extracted

 

[ProjectBeer]

I thought the isomeration stops below 80C, hence the steep at 79C or below?

I had this article bookmarked from a little while back https://byo.com/mead/item/2808-hop-stands

edit: I also realise that you do no-chill...do you have your hops in a bag that you remove at flameout? Extra time naturally cooling to 80C will definitely extract more alpha acids if you have hops (especially late additions) sat in the kettle...that's what messed up my last IPA.

 

[Covrich]

You can get to 80 pretty quickly from 100 if you use a cooler, If you no chill I assume you tinker your bittering additions anyway right?

Do they also affect chill haze/?.. I know for no chill that is a non issue as it is like that anyway, but steeping at 80 will mean you're not cooling down quickly?

 

[wheazy_joe]

Knowing nothing about this but thinking logistically; could you flame out after say 40mins and cool down to 80℃ during a 20min period, then hold temp for final hop addition?

Probably way too simplistic.

 

[ProjectBeer]

Knowing nothing about this but thinking logistically; could you flame out after say 40mins and cool down to 80℃ during a 20min period, then hold temp for final hop addition?

Probably way too simplistic.

You mean having a 40 minute boil?

 

[clibit]

In my experience you need to be careful; with hop additions late in the boil. The 60 min hops have had around 90% of their alpha removed by flame out, and so it's the later additions that can really increase the IBUs in the period between flame out and droppiing below 80C. If they are high alpha hops, you really need to be careful. A solution is to fish them out - either by using hop bags, or just fishing with a sieve. Or you could estimate the IBUs added by the additional time in wort that is above 80C after flame out, by calling 5 min hops 20 minute hops, perhaps, in your software.

But I am tending to keep things simple these days, by cooling down quickly - 10 litres in a sink of cold water gets down to 80C pretty quickly, especially if you stir it. Then add steeping hops if you want them. For full size batches I guess you really need a chiller if you are not taking the hops out at flame out.

 

[rodabod]

I think the whole technique really needs experimentation. It's not black and white, ie. bitterness and flavour. You've got the temperature variable and time variable. And on top of that the alpha % if you do indeed isomerise some of these solids.

These two variables are pretty critical for making a cup of tea, and I don't see it being much different for steeping hops. I'm still not entirely happy with my whirlpool additions, so I need to do some more work.

I think I'd like to try a flame-out addition with an almost immediate chill (say to 80--85c) and then allow these to steep further. I'd try this by recirculating the wort via a chiller.

 

[MyQul]

Thanks for the answers guys. The reason I'm really asking is that I'm finding with my bitters the bittering isn't smooth, it's got a harsh edge to it. I think it is either flame out hops or my water as my water isn't very good for pale ales. I never have this harshness with my dark beers but then again I usually never bother with late additions let alone flame out hops for stouts/porters and my water is great for dark beers.

I've also got a further 'problem' in that I no -chill so cannot chill my wort quickly to 80C . However to get around this what I've started to do lately is take about 3L of wort out of the 23L when it's cooled down the next day and re-boil it and add the late additions/flame out hops to this 'microboil'.This small amoutn of wort is of course easy to cool down to 80Cquickly.
I've wondered if adding late addtions/flame out for a 23L in such a small amount of wort causes this harshness? But I can't think it would as when people make hop teas in small amounts of liquid I haven't read it produces any extra harshness.

I have a best bitter in the FV which I treated the water and did a microboil with , so If it still has the harshness I'll know its probably the micro boil that's causing the harshness (unless of course it's something I haven't thought of)

@Projectbeer I normally strain the bittering addition out as the wort goes into the FV and as mentioned above do a micro boil the next day for the flameout hops

@Covrich I dont actually adjust my hops for no chill as I strain them out with a seive more or less straight after turning the gas off. Interesting question about chill haze. I'm not sure really. I definately get it with no chill but I don't worry about it

@clibit Will diffenatley take that into account next time I do flame out hops

 

[ProjectBeer]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you live near Bermondsey? I emailed one of the craft breweries there asking for typical values for some parameters as the Thames Water report for my area (New Cross) is missing key info for us brewers - they were kind enough to not only just reply, but they gave me a water report they commissioned recently with all the values you need AND it also included recommendations on exactly how to treat it for different styles. You just need to scale it accordingly.

If you want it DM me and I'll gladly send it across.

If you're doing all-grain, have you tried first wort hops? I've read that those give a real nice smooth bittering.

Also if you're doing no-chill, what about just straining your hops out like you currently do, then just add flameout hops in a bag or something when the wort reaches 79C, then take them out after 20-30 mins?

 

[MyQul]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you live near Bermondsey? I emailed one of the craft breweries there asking for typical values for some parameters as the Thames Water report for my area (New Cross) is missing key info for us brewers - they were kind enough to not only just reply, but they gave me a water report they commissioned recently with all the values you need AND it also included recommendations on exactly how to treat it for different styles. You just need to scale it accordingly.

If you want it DM me and I'll gladly send it across.

If you're doing all-grain, have you tried first wort hops? I've read that those give a real nice smooth bittering.

Also if you're doing no-chill, what about just straining your hops out like you currently do, then just add flameout hops in a bag or something when the wort reaches 79C, then take them out after 20-30 mins?

I live in Peckham just down the road from Bermondsey. I used last years water report from Thames water which is online for my water adjustments (along with the info from my salifert test kit) but yes I'll definately have a copy of what the brewery sent you.

I've read a little about first wort hops. There was a thread discussing it a couple of weeks ago. It's not something I've thought of trying just yet but It's definately something to keep in mind now you mention it.

Thats actually a fantastic idea for the flame out hops. I could use one of my spare paint strainers to put the hops in. I am able to actually cool my wort down relatively quickly (in about 40 mins) using a builders trug water bath and ice. So as clibit mentions late addition hops stewing in the wort can be a problem but I could use a paint strainer for my late additons. Yank it out at flame out, cool to 80C then add a second paint strainer with the flameout hops in for 20 mins. Mmmm. I thinka plan is coming together :hmm:Might give that a go and see if it works

 

[jamie72]

I also use no chill. What I have done before to get my wort down to 80'c is to freeze 3 x 2 litre milk bottles full of water the day before. once I turn the gas off I plop these in and that gets it down to 80 in about 10 minutes. Once at that temp I hook them out with a sanitized fork through the bottle handles.