First AG Brew - Getting worse with age?

[Freypal]

I've brewed a number of kits with varying success over the years, some turning out quite well but all had that underlying home brew twang.

A couple of months back I brewed my first batch of all grain following a clone recipe of purity mad goose which is a favourite of mine. A lovely light hoppy ale using Willamette and cascade hops.

Brew day went fine and after fermenting it out,the sample jar I tried post ferment was absolutely superb. No twang, lovely hop character and remarkably close to the real version. Came out around 6% abv.

I then batch primed and bottled. After 2 weeks in the bottle it was ok but not quite as good as post ferment which I put down to it still doing a secondary ferment in the bottle. 4 weeks in about the same. Just tried another which has now been in the bottle for 6 weeks and its just getting worse. It now has no hop flavour and has developed that same home brew twang I got with all my kit brews.

Any idea what could be up with it? Could it still be too early given its a fairly strong brew? Really disappointing since it was so good when it finished fermenting to now being pretty poor.

All the bottles were thoroughly cleaned and sanitised as was all equipment used. I used around 100g brewing sugar to batch prime pre bottling.

Ive just brewed another AG recipe and started the ferment and want to avoid anything that may be causing it to go 'off' in the bottle.

Thanks!

 

[Simonh82]

I think there could be a couple of things going on. The twang could be some kind of infection or staling through oxygen contact at some point in the brewing/bottling.

With regards to the hop aroma, I think beer can lose that very quickly. I just cracked my first bottle of a hoppy pale ale which has been carbonating for a week and fermented for two weeks before that. The hop aroma was great and I can't imagine that the beer will get any better than today. I often find that a beer has lost some hop kick after a month in the bottle and by 6 weeks can seem pretty muted.

I know the standard advice is 2 weeks fermenting, 2 weeks carbonating and 2 more weeks conditioning but for pale hoppy beers of modest ABV I go with 2 weeks fermenting and a week carbonating with a day in the fridge to chill. I want to drink it whilst the hop flavour and aroma are at their maximum.

With a slightly stronger beer like yours I might expect it to benefit from another week or two but that is a balancing act between the hops which has are fading the whole time and the malt profile which is improved by a little age.

I'm prepared to be shot down on this one but that's my experience.

 

[Freypal]

Interesting, thanks for the info.

Thinking back on the process I'm thinking possibly oxidation. I do recall my auto syphon getting part way through and glugging air. Ironically I used the auto syphon over a conventional one to try and prevent infection. Reading reviews online of it now, it seems others have reported the same.

That's something to try differently with this batch, a new syphon. Anything else anyone could think of?

 

[Soton]

when you open a bottle of your beer is there a small surge of CO2 in the bottle, i ask this just to check your bottles are tightly sealed
As for the syphon I just use a syphon tube with one of those small plastic taps on it and I suck the tube to get the syphon going, I did this for years with out any infection problems what so ever, now with all the info at hand on the internet and the obsession with infecting your brew by sucking on the syphon tube (as I have never had a I problem in years of wine and beer brewing I am not really convinced it happens) I improved my methods, just for my own piece of mind, I still suck on the tube but now I leave it in a bowl of starsan until needed but have another short bit of syphon tubing about 3-4 inches long that I push push on the outlet end of the syphon tap and when I then suck the beer to get it going, once there is enough beer in the tube to start the syphon action I turn the tape off then remove the short piece of tube I sucked on and drop that into the starsan then I give the little tap and tubing a spray with more starsan then I open the tap and syphon into my bottles and kegs,
I know that probably sounds a bit long winded but it all takes just a few seconds to do

 

[Cwrw666]

Hop aromas and even bitterness fade quite quickly in stored beer, so general advice is that if you're after a hop hit then you need to drink the beer green. ie. bottle it, get the pressure up and drink it straight away.
Interesting fact about IPA - it was made very strong and very hoppy so that it would not only survive the long sea trip to India - but on it's arrival it would just taste like normal beer!

 

[Freypal]

Hi thanks guys. Yep, the caps are sealed well with a nice hiss when they're popped off.

I did consider a similar approach with the syphoning. I know there's another method where you can prefill the tube then place it in the fv and draw it out without having to suck.

One thing on the hop degradation. How is it that commercial brewers are able to sell bottled beers that have a big hop hit and keep their hoppiness over time? Are these just seriously over hopped during fermentation?

 

[DarrenSL]

Hi. What temperature do you aerate your wort before pitching your yeast? Hops do fade over time and it is best to drink fresh but you should still get plenty of hop character 3 months or more after you've brewed. As you rightly say, commercial brewers do it. I just bought a case of Crafty Dan's 13 Guns which is very hoppy (£14.40 for 12 from Costco - bargain!). The expiry date is May 2017!

Also, how would you describe the 'twang'? Sharp, sour, stale, chemically, etc?

 

[Cwrw666]

Hi thanks guys. Yep, the caps are sealed well with a nice hiss when they're popped off.

I did consider a similar approach with the syphoning. I know there's another method where you can prefill the tube then place it in the fv and draw it out without having to suck.

One thing on the hop degradation. How is it that commercial brewers are able to sell bottled beers that have a big hop hit and keep their hoppiness over time? Are these just seriously over hopped during fermentation?

Most commercial beer is extremely green when you drink it - their brewing schedule means that they get it out of the door and into pubs / shops as quickly as possible as there's no profit in having warehouses full of slowly maturing product. I would expect they formulate their recipes accordingly.
When you've got a few more AG brews under your belt you'll find yourself being highly disappointed with much of the beer sold in pubs.
I've been doing AG for about 18 months now. I had a few dissapointing brews at the start (actually hoppy pale ales - they were ok but hardly worth the effort) but since then I've been really happy with my produce - mostly brown ales, stouts and a few oddball things like French Biere de Garde and Heather ale. It doesn't take long before you sample a brew and immediately think of a way to make it even better the next time.

 

[Sandimas]

Hops will fade with time but not that much, I brewed a couple of hoppy beers back in March and they still have a hop kick 4 months later though it has mellowed a bit.

Loss of hop flavour could possibly be an infection, is there excess CO2 in the bottles when you open them (another classic sign of infection)?

I started AG brewing last year and the percentage of infected brews rocketed, I think because the wort is vulnerable during the cooling stage. I only got it under control when winter arrived (less flies and airborne nasties) and doubles up my already-thorough cleaning regime. It almost put me off AG brewing, as it never happened with kits nor extarct, but they weren't full-volume boils that needed cooling.

 

[Simonh82]

Most commercial beer is extremely green when you drink it - their brewing schedule means that they get it out of the door and into pubs / shops as quickly as possible as there's no profit in having warehouses full of slowly maturing product. I would expect they formulate their recipes accordingly.

I think this is very true. I was on a breweries website recently (might have been Black Sheep) and they were positively boasting about conditioning their beer for two weeks. I think many ship it out after a few days.

 

[Freypal]

Hi. What temperature do you aerate your wort before pitching your yeast? Hops do fade over time and it is best to drink fresh but you should still get plenty of hop character 3 months or more after you've brewed. As you rightly say, commercial brewers do it. I just bought a case of Crafty Dan's 13 Guns which is very hoppy (�£14.40 for 12 from Costco - bargain!). The expiry date is May 2017!

Also, how would you describe the 'twang'? Sharp, sour, stale, chemically, etc?

Hi - I aerate at around 17-18°C ready for pitching temperature.

I'd say the "twang" is musty or stale. Definitely not sharp/sour/chemically. It's hard to describe, but it's exactly the background flavour I associate with a kit brewed beer.

Thanks!

 

[Freypal]

Hops will fade with time but not that much, I brewed a couple of hoppy beers back in March and they still have a hop kick 4 months later though it has mellowed a bit.

Loss of hop flavour could possibly be an infection, is there excess CO2 in the bottles when you open them (another classic sign of infection)?

I started AG brewing last year and the percentage of infected brews rocketed, I think because the wort is vulnerable during the cooling stage. I only got it under control when winter arrived (less flies and airborne nasties) and doubles up my already-thorough cleaning regime. It almost put me off AG brewing, as it never happened with kits nor extarct, but they weren't full-volume boils that needed cooling.

Hi - Nope there isn't excess CO2 when they crack. Just a 'normal' hiss then they pour nice and clear with good carbonation.

Interesting - seems so much to learn nuance wise, on top of what is already a fairly complicated process!

 

[Chippy_Tea]

As for the syphon I just use a syphon tube with one of those small plastic taps on it and I suck the tube to get the syphon going, I did this for years with out any infection problems what so ever, now with all the info at hand on the internet and the obsession with infecting your brew by sucking on the syphon tube (as I have never had a I problem in years of wine and beer brewing I am not really convinced it happens) I improved my methods, just for my own piece of mind, I still suck on the tube but now I leave it in a bowl of starsan until needed but have another short bit of syphon tubing about 3-4 inches long that I push push on the outlet end of the syphon tap and when I then suck the beer to get it going, once there is enough beer in the tube to start the syphon action I turn the tape off then remove the short piece of tube I sucked on and drop that into the starsan then I give the little tap and tubing a spray with more starsan then I open the tap and syphon into my bottles and kegs,
I know that probably sounds a bit long winded but it all takes just a few seconds to do

I used to start the syphon with my mouth and had no problems but changed my method when reading the horror stories in the new members do's and don't thread, i used the tap and as short piece of tube for a while but then found the top off a biro (with the bit that you clip over your pocket removed) does the job perfectly, once the flow starts i lift the end of the tube above the top of the DJ or FV so it stops then remove the sterilised pen top and put the clean tube onto my little bottler or into my FV or DJ.

 

[DarrenSL]

What's your water like, hard or soft? My water is all rain water and is very soft. Without any salt adjustment, a typical pale ale grist would leave me in the pH region of 5.7-5.8

I read with interest this experiment today:
http://www.hoptomology.com/2013/07/15/the-effect-of-ph-on-hop-character-the-results/

Quite a remarkable difference from just 0.3pH difference!

Particularly interesting was the fact that there was no difference at first but 10 days later a significant change!

 

[Freypal]

What's your water like, hard or soft? My water is all rain water and is very soft. Without any salt adjustment, a typical pale ale grist would leave me in the pH region of 5.7-5.8

I read with interest this experiment today:
http://www.hoptomology.com/2013/07/15/the-effect-of-ph-on-hop-character-the-results/

Quite a remarkable difference from just 0.3pH difference!

Particularly interesting was the fact that there was no difference at first but 10 days later a significant change!

Hi - My water is very soft. I brew using tap water and the water report for my area says it's at the bottom of the scale for hardness.

For the brew in question I added a couple of teaspoons of burton water crystals in an effort to bring the water balance up a bit and also a campden tablet. I'll have a read of the article, water treatment is an interesting subject!

I read with interest your post regarding infection vs oxidation. To be honest I am hoping my issue is down to oxidation as I know I have had issues with my Syphon drawing in quite a lot of air which I now realise was not the best!

For the next batch that's currently fermenting (and smells amazing!) I've got a new syphon on order, i'm planning to go to town on bottle sterilisation and I also have a new crown capper to ensure i'm getting a proper seal on the bottles. I really want to make a nice batch!

 

[DarrenSL]

Good luck with your latest brew. Let us know how it goes :smile:

 

[Freypal]

Good luck with your latest brew. Let us know how it goes :smile:

Shall do cheers!

Hopefully we can both figure out what's wrong :)

 

[Haresy77]

Just to add my recent experience. I had an IPA deteriorate in the bottle (went from a nice light colour to a nasty looking brown / orange colour). I've trawled through all of the usual sites and I'm now convinced this is oxidation resulting from my auto-syphon. I have been struggling to prevent bubbles forming in the tube and having ruled out the tubes connection with the cane I realised the rubber seal at the bottom of the pump is frayed and can't hold an airtight seal.

I've ordered a new one today. I think I've managed to avoid any serious problems for other brews but I do recall the bubbles being particularly bad in the case of this IPA.

Just something to check if people are having similar issues. :thumb:

(spotted a review on Amazon where someone had the same problem so something to check as soon as you buy one)

 

[Freypal]

Just to add my recent experience. I had an IPA deteriorate in the bottle (went from a nice light colour to a nasty looking brown / orange colour). I've trawled through all of the usual sites and I'm now convinced this is oxidation resulting from my auto-syphon. I have been struggling to prevent bubbles forming in the tube and having ruled out the tubes connection with the cane I realised the rubber seal at the bottom of the pump is frayed and can't hold an airtight seal.

I've ordered a new one today. I think I've managed to avoid any serious problems for other brews but I do recall the bubbles being particularly bad in the case of this IPA.

Just something to check if people are having similar issues. :thumb:

(spotted a review on Amazon where someone had the same problem so something to check as soon as you buy one)

Very interesting. Mine is also an auto syphon and had exactly the same as you describe with a lot of bubbles of air being drawn in.

I ordered a new one too.but not tested it yet. I've got a batch that should be ready to bottle this weekend. I'll test the new auto syphon with water first to make sure the bubble problem isn't present on this one too and hope for the best!

 

[The Idiot]

Sometimes beer gets infected. Sometimes it gets oxidation. The vast majority of the time beer with off-tastes comes down to the fact that it has been rushed.

Yeast takes time to do its work. One job is converting sugar to alcohol. This produces CO2 plus bubbling and foam; the krausen. Some yeasts will take a 1.050 beer to 1.005 is three or four days. If you consider gravity alone, you'd think the beer was done. It might even taste okay. But here's the thing; it's nowhere near finished. If you bottle it at that point you won't allow the yeast to complete final fermentation. The beer will still have unconverted sugars, metabolites and yeast in suspension. Diacetyl will not be reduced sufficiently, nor will the pH. A lower pH helps prevent infection.

Messing about with the beer, opening the fermenter and taking samples at this point all expose the beer to outside forces at its most vulnerable stage.

Any beer bottled at this stage will have off-tastes, and they'll become more obvious as it ages. It will also be more likely to spoil in the bottle or keg.

Yeast effectively clean up after themselves. They not only remove the by-products of initial fermentation, but they then also remove their own by-products, before effectively removing themselves. This takes time. Over carbonation can mean an infection, but 99 times out of 100 it's because the yeast wasn't allowed to finish its work. Off-flavours can mean an infection, but 99 times out of 100 it's because the yeast wasn't allowed to finish its work. Rapid spoilage and deterioration can mean an infection, but ... you know the score!

I've brewed for (too) many years and made more mistakes than I can remember. I've never heard the 2+2+2 mantra until I looked at brewing forums. Some people swear by it, but I'd bet anyone that a beer fermented for 3 weeks minimum and conditioned appropriately will be better than any following the 2+2+2 routine.

In over 30 years I can count batches there were bad on one hand, and of those only one didn't get drunk (well, half of it did). I suck syphon hose, I forget to sanitise bits and pieces, I stick my hand into buckets to pull out things I've dropped in there. However, one thing I never do is even open a fermenter until it's been in the three weeks. No testing, no looking, no nothing for 21 days minimum.

As well as creating better tasting beer, it pretty much fights infection.

If anyone is into charcuterie, you'll be aware of the next point. When I make dried sausage I stuff the casings with meat and spices and a culture to cause fermentation. I then leave them in a warmish room for five days. Then they go somewhere cooler to dry and age. The reason they don't make people is sick is that harmful bacteria needs certain conditions to survive.

They need warmth, damp and surprisingly little time. They've got all three. However, the fermentation culture reproduces quickly and lowers the pH to a point where the nasty bacteria can't survive. It's the same thing brewing yeast does (well, one of the things it does) but until it has achieved that the wort is vulnerable.

Unless you keep your paws off the beer, you're letting the harmful bacteria into an easy breeding ground. It's another reason to keep away for 3 weeks.

I understand that some people want to drink their beer quicker, but then you should accept that it will be inferior. If you do it quicker and believe it isn't inferior, then think what you might be missing out on.

People invest in equipment, they go mad sanitising everything, but don't realise that an essential of defeating infection is a lower pH and they're actually interfering with the yeast creating that.

Before I worried about infections and dodgy equipment, I'd put the basics in place.