Fermenting directly in the Grainfather G30

[Ashman]

It would tie up the brewing kettle but I’m interested if anyone has fermented directly in the Grainfather G30 over northern hemisphere winter ? My understanding is the controller is a PID so if one set the temperature to say 18C would it be able to control the heating at that low level or is the element too powerful. I remember something about switched elements to lower wattage (800w?) but they may changed that.

 

[MmmBeer]

It has a variable power output, not quite sure how it works, but the screen shows heating from 0 - 100% of max output.

It also has a built-in pump for bottling, but not sure I'd want to risk it though.

 

[Ashman]

It has a variable power output, not quite sure how it works, but the screen shows heating from 0 - 100% of max output.

It also has a built-in pump for bottling, but not sure I'd want to risk it though.

Cheers I forgot about the pump section. There is no valve to turn off and on so I guess it would be full during the ferment.

 

[foxy]

It would tie up the brewing kettle but I’m interested if anyone has fermented directly in the Grainfather G30 over northern hemisphere winter ? My understanding is the controller is a PID so if one set the temperature to say 18C would it be able to control the heating at that low level or is the element too powerful. I remember something about switched elements to lower wattage (800w?) but they may changed that.

That is a bad idea. There would be no end of beer spoiling microorganisms in the return pipe with easy access to the wort. And that's ignoring the fact that you would be leaving every thing in the kettle, all the break and hop material.

 

[Manxnorton]

I share foxy's thoughts but I've put an idea together.
Let's face it, what worse can go wrong even in a small batch.
This is ferment only, you choose how you load and unload the product.
Start with the G30.

 

[Manxnorton]

2”

 

[Manxnorton]

now in homebrewing cleaning n sanitising goes without says saying.
get food grade tape on the silicone insert. maybe secure with clamp just incase.
this should rule out the filter and pump.
and don’t worry using ng a spunding valve for pressures ferment (i’d go no more than 5psi)
only probs is cooling, my brewery atm is cold.
anyhoo!
i’ll wait for comments and idea’s we’ll before i d this experiment
bri

 

[foxy]

now in homebrewing cleaning n sanitising goes without says saying.
get food grade tape on the silicone insert. maybe secure with clamp just incase.
this should rule out the filter and pump.
and don’t worry using ng a spunding valve for pressures ferment (i’d go no more than 5psi)
only probs is cooling, my brewery atm is cold.
anyhoo!
i’ll wait for comments and idea’s we’ll before i d this experiment
bri

You are talking about transferring into your spare Grainfather to ferment?

 

[MashBag]

It would tie up the brewing kettle but I’m interested if anyone has fermented directly in the Grainfather G30 over northern hemisphere winter ?

I ferment in kettle (FIK) all the time in my BM20. Fan-bleedy-tastic.

My understanding is the controller is a PID so if one set the temperature to say 18C would it be able to control the heating at that low level or is the element too powerful.

Yes indeed the element is too powerful. It will have too much lag to be sensitive enough.

Get a stick-on 220v/50w silicone tank heater (£5 on ebay) & an inkbird. Insulate with a sleeping bag. Sorted.

For English ales, this works a treat, I cannot speak for other styles.

An MJ hop spider is best to be able to remove the hop debris. YOU MUST REMOVE THE MAJORITY OF SPENT HOP.

Hot Break etc is fine. There are arguments both ways. A bit of trub is yeast Nutrient. Tried rinsing it out and then returning the wort. Pointless.

Overnight chill too.

Take reasonable steps for blockages. Blow back to clear.

I have not found Infections to be issue. Tbh I do think there is increased risk but running the wort, through more hoses, pumps and buckets than leaving it on the one that has just boiled

Bottle warm. Get a bouncer. It won't disappoint.

I FIK in the summer with a chiller lid.

 

[Manxnorton]

You are talking about transferring into your spare Grainfather to ferment?

either one of them.

atm just testing the water.
if there’s a will there be away.

 

[Manxnorton]

as you can imagine i’ve tested all kinds of Fv setups since middle 80’s when i started.
sone good, some SHOWER!.
the whole idea is to take out the pump and filter (seal it off) food grade tape on the silicone insert- SS jubilee clip for extra security.
All you have is a clean n sanitised FV.
take out beer is via Co2 pick up at the top of the bulkhead into keg. ok about 5 psi is going to be slow but under pressure transfer.
as i’ve always said my brain doesn’t work as good as it did some seeing your all remarks allows take off my blinkers seeing the obvious.
what about the small element (500w) used with mash temp?
obv i’ll have to test that, say 19c constant, then ramp up a few degrees D rest (20-21c)
great to get all your ideas, but this risk of contamination if our cleaning n sanitize makes the G30 into so a SS FV no harder than my Ss brewbucket 27l conical fv.
Added bonus i’m my plan is no Dry hop, a simple recipe and naybe a fast ferment yeast (like the Verdant ipa i’m using atm)
like i said yesterday, testing the ‘water’ first.
in a 20l simulated test with water! to test the temps.
hope my idea is now clearer sorry if i confused you.
1. Isolated the pump n fillet off.
2. charge the kettle/FV using what’s at hand.
3. airate (should have plenty airstion by charging the wort in)
4. pitch the yeast.
5. assemble the lid/bulkhead fittings inc. spunding valve set for 5psi.
6. switch on G30, mash (small element ) for 19c.
The rest you know!
for cold crashing it’ll have to switch off, and use brewery temp to assist!
Graincoat to help

 

[Manxnorton]

20 litres


bottom and top set to mash, 20c set.

graincoat on! and for all i haven’t the lid setup it’ll be covered plenty of warm blankets etc.
idea is to test the regulation of temp. n see if the element does its job!
obv not an idea situation with a proper fermentation lol but you know where i’m going with this lol..
lata
bri

 

[Manxnorton]

obv as fermentation kicks in temp will rise, so no need for the graincoat until activity as drops!
fine testing tbh!!
all we need is temp control! otherwise waste o time!
hence 1# test one.
see how it reacts.
bri

 

[Manxnorton]

simulated after 2 hours (held the 20c spot on!) knew it would as i tested Sous Vide at higher temps for 48 hours it was brilliant.
probe out to brewery temp!
see the heater lamp come on
switch off at the set 20c




NOW TO ACTUAL TEST WITH A FERMENT!!
End o day prove the concept
if it goes pete tong! all i’ve lost is a few £ ‘s on recipe! & bulkhead & the floating tube setup, as i got the spunding valve & lid already.
what can go wrong!

 

[Sneedhearn]

It has a variable power output, not quite sure how it works, but the screen shows heating from 0 - 100% of max output.

A lot of these devices use a technique called pulse width modulation to turn the element on and off many times per second. Depending on the error (i.e. the distance from setpoint), the pulses will vary in length.

As the error reduces then pulses get shorter. In this way the rapid, variable length, digital pulses track the analogue output of the PID controller.

If a proprtional movement in the PID overshoots setpoint then the I-Time will cause the pulses to shorthen and nibble its way down to setpoint eventually. Naturally there is a lag between detecting an error and affecting a change in the controlled variable (wort, grain bed or whatever) as it takes time for that mass to heat up or cool down. This is known as the exponential lag, or at least it was when I was studying control theory 30 years ago.

 

[MashBag]

The problem with larger element is the lag (& overshoot) caused by the residual heat.

 

[Sneedhearn]

The problem with larger element is the lag (& overshoot) caused by the residual heat.

In theory at least, with the right PID settings you should be able to stabilise the process because the PWM control will just send shorter pulses to the large element.

I have created temperature and humidity control systems for everything from swimming pools to hotel function rooms and hospital operating theatres. In some cases controlling large electric heater batteries in the air supply using PID & PWM but with other sources too like steam, MTHW and LTHW. I've even put temperature controls onto the fermenting vessels of a local brewery.

In all these cases there are constants and variables that the PID settings need to deal with and could if properly set up, for the process at hand. I'm not even sure if the G30 gives access to the proportional band and i-time settings but even if it does not many people will find it a good way to spend their time I'm sure!

Anyway I have hijacked this thread more than enough with my rabbiting on. Just thought I'd chuck in my tuppence worth although not sure that it's been a useful contribution.

 

[MashBag]

In theory at least, with the right PID settings you should be able to stabilise the process because the PWM control will just send shorter pulses to the large element.

I theory yes, and I agree. I did settle for a simpler solution.

 

[Agentgonzo]

The problem with larger element is the lag (& overshoot) caused by the residual heat.

Whilst the PID will take care of overshoot and hit the correct target, it's been tuned to getting up to mash temperature quickly.

I would be concerned (rightly or wrongly) of the lag Mashbag mentions.

In the initial heating, if the wort is a few degrees lower than target, the element may come on full whack. That could lead to the wort next to the element being way hotter than the rest, with bad consequences for the yeast. It'll further exacerbate the issue with the layer of trub/yeast acting like a heat sink/insulator and the yeast cake getting "cooked" to a certain extent.

Once it's up to equilibrium and the PID is keeping it there, I don't see any difference between a grainfather setup and a fermenting bucket with sat on a heat mat or one with an integrated heater in the base

 

[MashBag]

I would be concerned (rightly or wrongly) of the lag Mashbag mentions.

Test it with water and you will see it whizz up and then fall back, only to whizz up again.

Fermentation heat mats are 40 - 50 watts. That was the clue for me when I started this.