Cider - What do YOU do after Primary Fermentation

[freester]

So my second question on this forum.

My apple juice is now bubbling away nicely in some fermenting bins.

I'm trying to plan ahead and make sure I'm ready for the next stage when it's time to rack the cider off. I've read around on t'internet and I'm feeling slightly overwhelmed as there are a lot of different suggestions, and also because I ended up with a lot more juice than I had reckoned on (somewhere just under 60l).

What I do know is I am keen to try a few different things, still, fizzy, dry and sweet so possibly four different products.

I'm not in a big rush - happy to let it mature and mellow (although I'm sure I'd like a little taste at Xmas!).

I've also got a shortage of containers for the secondary stage. I've scrounged 5x1 Gallon demijohns so far. Would a 23l Carboy be a worthwhile investment?

Is it OK to perhaps rack off into more bins - right up to the lid and use an air lock?

Do you stabilise with Campden and Potassium Sorbate after 1st fermentation for still cider or just rack off?

Safe stoppers or air locks in the top of the container for storage?

Rack off a 2nd time after 8 weeks?

I've got a few bottles (probably sacrilege to admit on a homebrew forum but I like a drop of San Miguel occasionally and am amassing a collection of 660ml brown bottles) that can be capped for the fizzy attempts when time to bottle.

 

[Personal91]

you are hungry for knowledge and want to experiment which is a great thing, i will give all my advice to you abit later as i have just heard that asda is doing a deal on star wars : the force awakens collectors edition 3D for 13 quid ! i wil report back

 

[Rockuronium]

Regarding your 660ml San Miguel bottles you'll need 29mm crowns and a 29mm capping bell. Try capping an empty one first, just to check and save yourself a right load of mither.


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[freester]

you are hungry for knowledge and want to experiment which is a great thing, i will give all my advice to you abit later as i have just heard that asda is doing a deal on star wars : the force awakens collectors edition 3D for 13 quid ! i wil report back

:lol: I look forward to all of your advice later!

Regarding your 660ml San Miguel bottles you'll need 29mm crowns and a 29mm capping bell. Try capping an empty one first, just to check and save yourself a right load of mither.

just got myself some crowns and a capper from Wilko. I assume these will be too small and I'll need a specific capper... I'm away from my brew and kit this week but I'll check on Friday when I get back home :)

 

[IainM]

Regarding your 660ml San Miguel bottles you'll need 29mm crowns and a 29mm capping bell. Try capping an empty one first, just to check and save yourself a right load of mither.


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Are you sure about this? I would be very surprised if they do come with 29mm caps. I know they are the type that have the lip much closer to rim than most other bottles, and my experience with these is that hand cappers struggle with them. More specifically, I can't cap them with the cheap Wilko caps, but can with ones from HBC, just about.

 

[Rockuronium]

My Ferrari capper was useless, some were on but barely, I could pop them off with my thumb, I left one as a trial and my beer was as flat as a witches tit after 3 weeks. You're correct though Iain, it's down to the lip as I had the same issue with Hob Goblin bottles also. Personally, I won't use either again, I'll stick with 500ml bottles with a standard lip.


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[freester]

All good advice. I'll try a cap out before bottling day!

 

[IainM]

OK,
Back to your original questions. You don't have to rack to secondary unless you plan on leaving the cider to bulk condition for a long time. Even then I wouldn't worry about it - one of my favourite wines, Muscadet sur lie, sits on the sediment for 6 months and doesn't suffer for it. What you can do, to get a mixture of still and sparkling ciders, sweet and dry is this:

Bottle a quarter of the cider with priming sugar for dry sparkling cider.
Bottle a quarter with priming sugar and sweetener for sweet sparkling cider.
Rack the other half into your demijohns, onto stabiliser (potassium sorbate and sodium metabisulphite)
When stabilised, bottle from the demijohns, half with sugar and half without, to get the still ciders.

Personally, I would do more dry sparkling cider, as that is what I prefer, but you can divvy it up any way you like.

 

[freester]

OK,
Back to your original questions. You don't have to rack to secondary unless you plan on leaving the cider to bulk condition for a long time. Even then I wouldn't worry about it - one of my favourite wines, Muscadet sur lie, sits on the sediment for 6 months and doesn't suffer for it. What you can do, to get a mixture of still and sparkling ciders, sweet and dry is this:

Bottle a quarter of the cider with priming sugar for dry sparkling cider.
Bottle a quarter with priming sugar and sweetener for sweet sparkling cider.
Rack the other half into your demijohns, onto stabiliser (potassium sorbate and sodium metabisulphite)
When stabilised, bottle from the demijohns, half with sugar and half without, to get the still ciders.

Personally, I would do more dry sparkling cider, as that is what I prefer, but you can divvy it up any way you like.

That's brilliant. Just the sort of advice I was looking for. I think I was erring towards what you mention. But maybe also rack off some to demijohns for secondary conditioning without stabiliser, then bottle in the spring with priming sugar for a 'matured' sparkling variety. Again some dry and some sweet.

 

[MattH1973]

wish this thread and IainMs reply had been up when I was grappling with this issue 3 weeks ago. FWIW I went down the bottled, sparkling dry cider route in the end as I like that cider, and didn't have a suitable vessel to brim to the top for bulk ageing. Next year I think I will hopefully have some more juice, and plan to get a few demijohns so that I can try bulk ageing and a variety of flavours.

I hope to keep most of mine until December at least - but I expect I will try one this weekend - about 2 weeks after bottling.

 

[IainM]

That's brilliant. Just the sort of advice I was looking for. I think I was erring towards what you mention. But maybe also rack off some to demijohns for secondary conditioning without stabiliser, then bottle in the spring with priming sugar for a 'matured' sparkling variety. Again some dry and some sweet.

Great. One thing I forgot, you don't need to use the stabiliser for the still dry cider. Plus, if you use sweetener instead of sugar, you don't need it for the sweet dry one either.

 

[freester]

Great. One thing I forgot, you don't need to use the stabiliser for the still dry cider. Plus, if you use sweetener instead of sugar, you don't need it for the sweet dry one either.

That's great thank you. So really the only time you would use stabiliser is if you wanted to sweeten with sugar and eliminate any risk or further fermentation?

Is there much difference to ciders sweetened with sugar to sweetener - tastewise?

 

[IainM]

That's great thank you. So really the only time you would use stabiliser is if you wanted to sweeten with sugar and eliminate any risk or further fermentation?

Is there much difference to ciders sweetened with sugar to sweetener - tastewise?

Exactly, the stabiliser neutralises the yeast and prevents further fermentation when the sugar is added. Another option is to pasteurise, by heating the cider up to 75C for 8 minutes. Both options can affect the taste.

The difference between the taste of sugar and sweetener depends on how sweet you make it. If you are just sweetening to take the edge off and balance the acidity, then you probably won't notice much of a difference. If you plan on taking it up to Koppaberg levels of sweetness then you probably would notice an artificial taste.

There are other techniques to get sweet fizzy cider without using stabiliser. For instance, you can bottle with both the priming sugar and the sweetening sugar, making sure that one of your bottle is plastic (e.g. a fizzy drinks bottle). Regularly check the plastic bottle by squeezing it, and when it becomes very hard you know that it is carbonated, at which point you can pasteurise the batch before all the sugar is consumed. You have to be careful though, as leaving it too long could make your bottles gush upon opening or, in the worst case scenario, explode.

 

[freester]

Thanks again Iain.

There are other techniques to get sweet fizzy cider without using stabiliser. For instance, you can bottle with both the priming sugar and the sweetening sugar, making sure that one of your bottle is plastic (e.g. a fizzy drinks bottle). Regularly check the plastic bottle by squeezing it, and when it becomes very hard you know that it is carbonated, at which point you can pasteurise the batch before all the sugar is consumed. You have to be careful though, as leaving it too long could make your bottles gush upon opening or, in the worst case scenario, explode.

Think I'll save the 'advanced' course for next year :lol:

All great stuff everyone please keep the suggestions / workflows coming!

 

[MagnusTS]

I recently did a small batch of turbo cider (4.5L Sainsbury's own brand apple juice from concentrate), and I had the same questions as you about how to finish it off.
I like fizzy cider, so I went the route of bottling with priming sugar (also the easiest route I think).
I used 8g priming sugar per 500ml bottle - they were very fizzy. At bottling I added a Canderel tablet to 3 of the bottles (sweet); I added 2 Canderel to 3 of the bottles (super sweet); and left 3 bottles with no sweetener (dry). Me and my helpful bunch of cider testers reckoned the dry ones were hands down the best. The sweet ones were pretty good too. But in the super sweet you could taste the artificial sweetener. So easy for me for future batches: no worries about stabilising or sweetening, just bottle and prime for fizzy dry cider.

 

[freester]

Thanks again for all the replies.

I checked out the bottle caps on my bottles. Basically I've got a mix of brown 660ml Moretti and San Miguel bottles. The Wilko caps and lever cap machine seem to work fine. The caps seem to be a tight fit and I couldn't push them off with my hand - needed a bottle opener to lever the caps off.

The ferment has slowed down now. I'll keep an eye on it but maybe leave it until late this week before I test the SG again.

 

[Pete Oakley]

Just a couple of quickies:-
If you want some for Crimbo rack one or two gallons off into demijohns and protect with air locks. Do this in the next week or so. Taste it about a week before the event and add sugar to sweeten it if needed. This won't be fizzy.................in my opinion it really doesn't matter after the first pint. If you have more than 3 lock the wardrobe before going to bed :lol:
For bottles Asda sell a rather nice larger type drink in 500 ml bottles for less than 90p. It comes in attractive green bottles and the labels soak off in no time. It's called Bavaria. Don't mix it with the cider!

 

[freester]

And more questions now I'm thinking about the next step.

Degassing? Do you bother with cider? Do you do this before racking off the primary fermentation yeast and then let it settle again. Or rack off into another bin / bucket degas then siphon into bottles / long term storage?

 

[BeerCat]

I have seen people on youtube who keg their cider sweeten it with wine conditioner and apple juice made from fractional freezing. Has anyone seen wine conditioner here in the UK?

 

[freester]

Just an update in case anyone is interested or finds this thread in a search.

I bottled ~18l (4x Demijohns) last weekend for my Xmas taster batch. In the end I just went for a 50/50 split of Dry sparkling and Dry flat. Syphoned into cleaned / sterilised San Miguel / Moretti 660ml bottles. I primed the sparkling bottles with half a teaspoon of caster sugar (measured using a proper measuring spoon). I folded a kitchen roll into a funnel shape - into which I poured the sugar and then filled the bottles using one of those bottling attachments at the end of the syphon. The sparkling bottles came into the house into to a temp of around 18-20 deg for a week.

First taste with colleagues is this week so I couldn't resist trying one of the sparkling bottles last night just to check if it had carbonated. It opened with a slight hiss and the cider poured out slightly sparkling (just how I like it). So - so far so good and the 660ml San Miguel / Moretti bottles work fine with normal caps and a lever capper. Taste is fine. Very dry as expected but nothing too offensive or complex. Better than some local farmyard stuff I've sampled in the past!

I think I will experiment with sweetening some with artificial sweetener when I bottle the rest in the spring...

Well happy!