Cheapskate

[the_quick]

This thread is just a lesson I learned and might be helpful - or not not maybe I'm the only stupid in the room :P

As I hate to throw away things that still can be used, I brew with old grain. I mean really old, I was given 10KG for free crushed grain, at the time I was not brewing, living in a flat and wife didn't like boiling wort.
So I kept the malt in the bag - original malt bag from crisp closed with cable tie. I put it in server room at work, constant temp 19 degrees and low humidity (I know perfect brewing condition- can't use it ). I though it going to be OK for longer. Well 2 years later, I brew with that grain.
Results are not great, beer taste more sour, doesn't keep hops aroma. It is drinkable but barely - again hate to throw away stuff. Second beer like this, so I'm sure grain is at fault.
Don't know chemistry/biology enough to figure out whole ageing process, but lesson learned.
Brew beer to same recipe with fresh grain, same equipment and it was lovely. Old grain = disaster.

Tomorrow is a new day, "brewing" give away from @Brew2bottle Homebrew , the Mangrove's Jack Juicy Session IPA.
Will post tomorrow session summary !

 

[chthon]

I think that a bag with a cable tie can't really be completely, hermetically closed.

According to maltster information (different companies), it should be possible to keep malt at least three years. But I think that you would need proper storage boxes which don't have oxygen ingress (thick plastics) and screw lids. Possibly also best to add some dessicant.

I don't know about the properties of the conversion enzymes, but after three year I would add some fresh lager malt to make sure that conversion is good.

 

[the_quick]

Bit of update on that. I have decided to keep the beer in my fridge at 12C. On top of normal maturation (2 weeks) it was given another 4. I just wanted to see if it will improve.
And as usual, time is your friend with beers. Sour taste gone, hops came out, beer is crystal clear. I wouldn't say it is a award winner, but definitely a decent beer. Family and friends well happy with it. Only thing it has bit more sediment than other beers.
I might from now one use secondary fermentation vessel, for last few days of fermentation. And than rack it to bottling bucket with priming sugar - much more prefer batch priming. Does that sound good?

 

[An Ankoù]

I've brewed with grain older that. Not hermetically sealed but in its 25 Kg sack in a big plastic barrel in a dry place. No probs.
Everything sounds good apart from the final para about batch priming. I don't think it's such a good idea, but I've already said why on two separate threads.

 

[chthon]

Don't fear the batch prime! I have batched primed since my first brewing experience, and have never done it any other way. Of course, maybe the amount (12 min, 28 max) helps reducing the risks, I don't know.

 

[matt76]

I've brewed with grain older that. Not hermetically sealed but in its 25 Kg sack in a big plastic barrel in a dry place. No probs.
Everything sounds good apart from the final para about batch priming. I don't think it's such a good idea, but I've already said why on two separate threads.

Intrigued by this I went hunting and found your explanation. I have to say, it's a well reasoned argument.

I have to question though how much oxidation damage a few ml of air can do (maybe 5-10ml in the head space of a full bottle?). A few ml air translates to a few mg, of which only 20% or so is oxygen.

When I have had oxidation problems before it was caused I think by a fancy auto syphon being more trouble then it was worth! No problems since I switched to a simple length of plastic tube.

But hey, if it works for you...

 

[An Ankoù]

Intrigued by this I went hunting and found your explanation. I have to say, it's a well reasoned argument.

I have to question though how much oxidation damage a few ml of air can do (maybe 5-10ml in the head space of a full bottle?). A few ml air translates to a few mg, of which only 20% or so is oxygen.

When I have had oxidation problems before it was caused I think by a fancy auto syphon being more trouble then it was worth! No problems since I switched to a simple length of plastic tube.

But hey, if it works for you...

I know, and I think I would agree, but some contributors are s fearful of oxidation, claiming they can taste the difference after even a short time in the bottle, that I try to play as safe as possible. In truth, a teaspoon of sugar per pint and straight from primary into the bottle is the way I started in the 70s- probably Dave Line's et al method and with no thought for oxidation at the time (oxygen is a recent invention). It's worked and other methods seem to give more scope for oxygen contamination., but you're probably right.

 

[chthon]

(oxygen is a recent invention)

 

[the_quick]

I think such tiny amount of oxygen will not do to much harm - I think maybe some people let more oxygen while bottling. And anyway, wouldn't yeast turn that oxygen in to co2 anyway? And as it is heavier, it would sit below oxygen - if any left?

 

[An Ankoù]

A few ml air translates to a few mg, of which only 20% or so is oxygen.

In fairness I have to wonder if a few miligrams of oxygen in, say, a 500 ml bottle is enough to produce an oxidation off-flavour. I don't know!

 

[An Ankoù]

I think such tiny amount of oxygen will not do to much harm - I think maybe some people let more oxygen while bottling. And anyway, wouldn't yeast turn that oxygen in to co2 anyway? And as it is heavier, it would sit below oxygen - if any left?

Interesting question. When beer is put into a bottle with a new charge of sugar and some air, does it go into aerobic primary fermentation just like a yeast starter would on being pitched into the beer. Don't see any reason why not. Does anybody know for sure?

 

[chthon]

Of almost all brews I have done, I always try to keep one bottle for a year, to see if it is still drinkable, and how it tastes after a year. My beers are kept in the garage, low to the ground, but I suppose that in summer the temperature can get between 20 and 30 degrees.

• What is most noticeable is that hop bitterness definitely fades
• I haven't had any sherry or porto tastes in any of my brews (and I know how it tastes, because I bought once a batch of empty bottles at bottle prices, but some of them still contained old beer).
• I don't know how subtly beer ages, but I have had my share of bought beers which were definitely of the wrong taste, despite being before the best before date

The short of it for me is that the only things I do against oxidation are things that are mechanically simple:

• Do not splash at mashing
• Run off not too fast and with tube outlet in the wort
• When racking from primary to secondary, make sure that outlet is at bottom and stays underneath fluid, also add 3,5 g sugar per litre of headspace, so that oxygen gets expelled
• Same for priming and bottling, rack through priming fluid
• After filling the bottles, I let them sit a quarter with the caps loose on them so that a part of the air already gets expelled by escaping carbon dioxide.
• I might have a bit of benefit of metabisulfite because I rinse my bottles with a solution of that, but that would be a really very low concentration inside the bottle

I am pretty sure that people who everywhere see the spectre of oxidation might get appalled by my way of working, but I haven't had yet a bottle (or maybe one) that that tasted oxidised.

What I am a bit angry about is that these people turn a fine hobby into an anal-retentive obsession with oxidation.

I am now reading "Microbrewed Adventures" by Charlie Papazian, and the atmosphere of the book is in stark contrast with that obsession.

So, RELAX, DON'T WORRY (what did you say?), have a homebrew!

 

[An Ankoù]

So, RELAX, DON'T WORRY (what did you say?), have a homebrew!

Papazian is a great read and so is Mosher. They're both obsessed with having fun instead of the minutiae of method. Contrast with James Morton's." don't budge an inch from my recipe or instructions or else the world'll end"
Time for a homebrew methinks.

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi An Ankou

Interesting question. When beer is put into a bottle with a new charge of sugar and some air, does it go into aerobic primary fermentation just like a yeast starter would on being pitched into the beer. Don't see any reason why not. Does anybody know for sure?

... yeah, Louis Pasteur found that out ... so he knew "for sure", first ... what he found was how the aerobic "use" of glucose is soooo much more efficient than anaerobic "use" for the yeast, that the presence of oxygen will actually suppress anaerobic fermentation, until the oxygen is consumed (see Pasteur effect (link)).

Cheers, PhilB

 

[GerritT]

I'm a sucker for happy endings *sniffs*

 

[MyQul]

• Do not splash at mashing

I would have thought any oxygen introduce during mashig would have been boiled out during the boil?

 

[Rodcx500z]

My take on this is, I brew beer if it tastes nice I drink it, I wouldn't know what oxidation tastes like if it slapped me round the chops, yes I have had a few home brews tonight just enjoy your beer

 

[Rodcx500z]

Just for me, what does it taste like

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi MyQul

I would have thought any oxygen introduce during mashig would have been boiled out during the boil?

... do you base that comment on having done the background research on hot side aeration that you promised to do over there (link) and concluding that it doesn't exist? Or have you forgotten what you found at the time?

{Later Edit: Sorry, I just thought it was funny how I was going to suggest you have a read up around hot side aeration (HSA), and searched the forum to see if it had been discussed on here before, and one of the first links in the search results was a post where you were saying you were going to go and find out about it ... now that I'm back where I have the links to some information ... most searches around HSA, and whether or not it "exists" (ultimately) lead back to Charlie Bamforth and the Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer "Brew Strong" podcast where they interview him about it ... you can listen to the podcast there (link) and/or there's a set of notes (almost a transcript) there (link) }

Cheers, PhilB

 

[foxbat]

Just for me, what does it taste like

Like a pub cask beer that's been open for a week.