Cheap kits sub 14£, never again !!!

[Graz]

Have to say that when you factor in the washing up, clearing away, sterilising etc that is always going to be a constant, do kits really save that much time. What is the 'missing stage' that you don't have to do with kits, if any?

Not sure what AG method you're using but I can have a kit made up and in the brew fridge in under an hour. From what I understand just the post mash boil takes that alone.

Fill bowl with hot water from the tap, put malt pouches / tins in it, leave for ~15 mins to soften whilst sorting everything else out.

Get fermenting bucket (already clean from previous use), pour a large glug of StarSan in it, put the lid on, give it a good shake. Take the lid off and add stirring paddle, sample jar, turkey baster, tin opener (if needed), & scissors, lid on, shake around a bit more to get everything wetted, finally lob in hydrometer (don't want to be shaking that around so much), leave it all for a bit, this all takes 2-3 minutes.

Fill kettle and switch on to boil.

As kettle is coming to a boil carefully remove all sanitised stuff from the fermenter onto an sanitised surface, dip probe of Thermapen into StarSan solution and set aside. Drain the StarSan from the fermenter back into container. 2-3 mins

Kettle now boiled, empty malt pouches / tins into fermenter, fill empty pouches with the boiled water + a bit of cold to top up, stir round with paddle to get remaining malt. Put any water remaining in the kettle into fermenter, add malty water from pouches and bin them. Fill kettle and put it back on again. Stir everything in the fermenter well to dissolve the malt, add any extra brewing sugar / dextrose if supplied with kit and stir in to dissolve. ~10 mins

Top up fermenter to desired volume with cold water from the tap. Do from height to aerate. When the last 2-3 litres need to be added give it a stir and check the temperature, too warm to pitch, keep adding the cold, too cold add some from the kettle. ~5 mins

Give it a last stir up and draw a sample to read the initial gravity. ~3 mins.

Put lid on, move to brew fridge, get it set up (i.e. temp probe + bubble wrap fixed to fermenter), lift lid, sprinkle on yeast, put lid back open slightly to let CO2 escape. Turn on brew fridge and check temperature setting. ~5 mins

Wash up the few bits you've used - paddle, baster, sample jar, hydrometer, scissors / opener, clean Thermapen probe ~5 mins

Make a note of start date and initial gravity. ~1 min

Job done.

Not ever saying kits are better than AG and when time allows I will dip my toe in the water on that front but for now can't beat the convenience of a kit.

 

[Little Rock Brewing]

I, like a lot of homebrewers, started off with kits. Some decent one and some really bad ones (Cooper's). But the thing that changed it all for me was doing a partial mash recipe. I never looked back. The difference in quality was massive and it wasn't that much more effort, really. Give it a whirl. What have you got to lose?

Forgive my ignorance but what is a partial mash? Is it like I did in the Abbey Blonde brew ie steep some grains overnight then drain and boil the wort with hops? Bit worried that I'm using Coopers cans as the base now, but with a lot of additional ingredients.

 

[Sandimas]

Forgive my ignorance but what is a partial mash?

From what I've read not all partial mash kits are equal, mashing is a very specific temperature-controlled process, some of these kits just consist of steeping adjunct grains and adding it to malt extract rather than doing an actual mash. But that's just being pedantic, both make great beer and are a significant improvement on basic kits, as you do a full boil to add bitterness and flavour, rather than it being pre-canned.

These get good press
https://darkrockbrewing.co.uk/beer/part-grain-beer-kits.html
And I've done lots of these in the past and can recommend
https://www.brewuk.co.uk/beerkits/craftybrews/brewextract.html
They do take longer than a kit brew, but nowhere near as long as AG. I do AG now but the big downside is dedicating the time to a brew, I can't do one in an evening so have to brew at weekends or days off, whereas I could brew one of the above in an evening.

 

[Little Rock Brewing]

Great stuff. I'm looking to complicate things a bit, so this is right up my street!

 

[BridgeBrew]

I mainly do AG, but if stuck for time, and beer rations running low I throw a kit on, normally a Cooper's Irish stout, or a range AIPA. Both these kits are sub £15, and can produce fabulous beer when modified slightly. The Cooper's I add 250g cold steeped chocolate malt, and brew short to 20L, the range AIPA I add 50g of citra, and 50g of Chinook as a dry hop, brew short to 21L, then leave for a month to condition. Hey presto superb beer at a fraction of the time an AG takes.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Maybe when I fully retire I'l have that extra time to do AG on a regular basis. Who am I kidding I'll be on my bike cycling as mush as poss to get rid of my beer calories. I need a big cycle tomorrow that's for sure. As for being on topic, I have bought 1 can kits but always use bottled water, dme and use a different yeast so no longer a 'cheap' kit.

 

[Little Rock Brewing]

One factor I have to consider is weight, of the ingredients that is! Postage to the rock I live on is pricey. It's more cost effective for me to get a 23 litre batch from a 3kg kit than from AG. So a bit of kit tweaking is my best option.

 

[marshbrewer]

I used to be able to pimp single can Cooper's kits into decent beer. I think they take longer to condition into a nice drink than the equivalent gravity all grain, but you can still make good beer IMHO. Obviously, I think you can make better beer going all grain but if time restrictions mean that isn't an option, pimp away!

 

[fury_tea]

I once got told off on this forum for being sanctimonious for a comment along these lines but I'm going to say it again anyway (maybe I am sanctimonious?)

The example below is completely reductionist, and I'd say there's hundreds of levels really but I've reduced it to 3:

If you take making a Spaghetti Bolognese as the example. There's many ways to get an ok result, and the more effort and time you put in the better the results (to a point, then it's diminishing returns). You choose your level based of time, money, experience, equipment, expectations and then you make your meal.

Level 1. You take a Dolmio sauce, you take some dried pasta and you make it in 10 minutes and it tastes kind of nasty but it's edible.
Level 2. You take Dolmio but you add things like fresh mince, onions and add dried herbs. That takes a bit longer, costs a bit more and requires a bit more equipment but you get a better result than you would get without it, but it's still not the best.
Level 3. You can make your own pasta from scratch (you need to buy equipment for this), you source organic ingredients for a mirepoix, mince your organic steak, use fresh herbs etc.

So these are your different levels of homebrewing. I wouldn't often do a level 1, but if I am struggling for time (I have a 7 month old which zaps all free time and energy at the moment) level 2 is an option (for me that's a wilko kit, reverse osmosis filtered water, either a mini mash on the hob, some steeped grains or just malt extract, and always a hefty dry hop. I often use the lager kits as they are basically a neutral base and not too bitter, and I turn them into American pale ales). I also sometimes brew 2 beers at once, I will make say 25L of one all grain, then after the boil I transfer 19L to my no chill container, empty a can of wilko lager into what's left in the kettle top up with water, boil again (short boil) and add some hops then transfer that to a no chill container and you have an extra beer with not very much extra effort/time.

Honestly though, I would mostly aim for level 3 as often as possible, splitting the tasks over several days because that's the best way I know to get the best results.

 

[AnimatedGIF]

Sanctimonious is a little harsh. Reductionist, yes

 

[phildo79]

Forgive my ignorance but what is a partial mash? Is it like I did in the Abbey Blonde brew ie steep some grains overnight then drain and boil the wort with hops? Bit worried that I'm using Coopers cans as the base now, but with a lot of additional ingredients.

A partial mash is also known as steeping grains. You don't need to leave them overnight to extract the flavour and sugars. About an hour should do it but you should try and keep the temp around 65 to 70 degrees C for that hour. Check out 'The Complete Joy of Homebrewing' for more guidance. Downloadable for free or pick up a secondhand version online for a couple of quid.

 

[Andrew Booth]

I started on woodfordes wherry back in 2009 two can kit one packet of yeast and loads of stuck fermentation’s back then. In 2012 I bought a Burco boiler and commenced brew in the bag this lasted fine till it packed up in 2017 at that point I got a Peco digital mash bin and carried on brew in the bag until this week where I’ve gone and ordered a Brewster Beacon 40 litre all in one. My brewing career has been a journey I still do some kits even now as I like to have something in a Pressure barrel as a session beer. One can kits I avoid I like the Wherrys also Youngs and most of what Muntons put out. My point is you have to spend the time you spend on brewing one of the reasons for getting a all in one is the time factor I can’t afford to spend six hours on brewing every week on my only day off from work so I looked to automate as much as possible and that includes I’ve made the jump from bottles to corny kegs and a conical fermenter as that now suits my style of brewing.

 

[Flan]

I once got told off on this forum for being sanctimonious for a comment along these lines but I'm going to say it again anyway (maybe I am sanctimonious?)

The example below is completely reductionist, and I'd say there's hundreds of levels really but I've reduced it to 3:

If you take making a Spaghetti Bolognese as the example. There's many ways to get an ok result, and the more effort and time you put in the better the results (to a point, then it's diminishing returns). You choose your level based of time, money, experience, equipment, expectations and then you make your meal.

Level 1. You take a Dolmio sauce, you take some dried pasta and you make it in 10 minutes and it tastes kind of nasty but it's edible.
Level 2. You take Dolmio but you add things like fresh mince, onions and add dried herbs. That takes a bit longer, costs a bit more and requires a bit more equipment but you get a better result than you would get without it, but it's still not the best.
Level 3. You can make your own pasta from scratch (you need to buy equipment for this), you source organic ingredients for a mirepoix, mince your organic steak, use fresh herbs etc.

So these are your different levels of homebrewing. I wouldn't often do a level 1, but if I am struggling for time (I have a 7 month old which zaps all free time and energy at the moment) level 2 is an option (for me that's a wilko kit, reverse osmosis filtered water, either a mini mash on the hob, some steeped grains or just malt extract, and always a hefty dry hop. I often use the lager kits as they are basically a neutral base and not too bitter, and I turn them into American pale ales). I also sometimes brew 2 beers at once, I will make say 25L of one all grain, then after the boil I transfer 19L to my no chill container, empty a can of wilko lager into what's left in the kettle top up with water, boil again (short boil) and add some hops then transfer that to a no chill container and you have an extra beer with not very much extra effort/time.

Honestly though, I would mostly aim for level 3 as often as possible, splitting the tasks over several days because that's the best way I know to get the best results.

Love that idea of making another brew with a can and your left over wort, quick question how long do you boil up the second brew and how much more hops do you add. I’m hoping to move to all grain very shortly as soon as room/time/equipment is all in place and this has tweaked my interest even more.

 

[fury_tea]

Love that idea of making another brew with a can and your left over wort, quick question how long do you boil up the second brew and how much more hops do you add. I’m hoping to move to all grain very shortly as soon as room/time/equipment is all in place and this has tweaked my interest even more.

Bear in mind that you could do the same thing with dried or liquid malt extract, but the beauty with the kits is they're already bittered so the boil is only for sterilisation and the cheap kits are not actually that much more expensive than the same quantity of DME. You might need to add some sugar/dme to get your OG up a bit as well.

I'm not a big fan of heavily bittered beers, so to answer your question I usually just do a 15 minute boil to sanitise. My wort is usually already bittered/hopped, as is the kit so don't want to add much more bitterness. I'll whirlpool hop (wait until it has cooled to 80c, throw about 50g-200g hops and leave it circulating for 20 mins to extract flavour and aroma (but limited bitterness) the transfer for cooling.

 

[moto748]

I used to do full mash/all grain brewing and would say that aside from needing extra equipment and more time per brew, it's the mashing, boiling and cooling - all the steam and the mess. If you are set up for all grain with an established process and appropriate space to brew in it probably seems like something everyone should do, but for a lot of people that is not their reality.

Do you, though, need extra equipment? I have a stock-pot, an ancient boiler, a couple of polythene buckets and a few demi-johns. I'll bet just about every kit brewer here has got that much, and in some cases, much more hi-tech equipment.

Cooling systems, pumps, brew fridges, piping, filters, bazookas, etc, etc, are optional extras (which, don't get wrong, many people will feel it's very nice to have), and are not required to brew the vast majority of beers.

Obviously some people will feel they don't want to to go down that route, and that's entirely up to them. But I wonder if some are put off by thinking it's more complicated than it really is.

 

[Gerryjo]

You could

Not sure what AG method you're using but I can have a kit made up and in the brew fridge in under an hour. From what I understand just the post mash boil takes that alone.

Fill bowl with hot water from the tap, put malt pouches / tins in it, leave for ~15 mins to soften whilst sorting everything else out.

Get fermenting bucket (already clean from previous use), pour a large glug of StarSan in it, put the lid on, give it a good shake. Take the lid off and add stirring paddle, sample jar, turkey baster, tin opener (if needed), & scissors, lid on, shake around a bit more to get everything wetted, finally lob in hydrometer (don't want to be shaking that around so much), leave it all for a bit, this all takes 2-3 minutes.

Fill kettle and switch on to boil.

As kettle is coming to a boil carefully remove all sanitised stuff from the fermenter onto an sanitised surface, dip probe of Thermapen into StarSan solution and set aside. Drain the StarSan from the fermenter back into container. 2-3 mins

Kettle now boiled, empty malt pouches / tins into fermenter, fill empty pouches with the boiled water + a bit of cold to top up, stir round with paddle to get remaining malt. Put any water remaining in the kettle into fermenter, add malty water from pouches and bin them. Fill kettle and put it back on again. Stir everything in the fermenter well to dissolve the malt, add any extra brewing sugar / dextrose if supplied with kit and stir in to dissolve. ~10 mins

Top up fermenter to desired volume with cold water from the tap. Do from height to aerate. When the last 2-3 litres need to be added give it a stir and check the temperature, too warm to pitch, keep adding the cold, too cold add some from the kettle. ~5 mins

Give it a last stir up and draw a sample to read the initial gravity. ~3 mins.

Put lid on, move to brew fridge, get it set up (i.e. temp probe + bubble wrap fixed to fermenter), lift lid, sprinkle on yeast, put lid back open slightly to let CO2 escape. Turn on brew fridge and check temperature setting. ~5 mins

Wash up the few bits you've used - paddle, baster, sample jar, hydrometer, scissors / opener, clean Thermapen probe ~5 mins

Make a note of start date and initial gravity. ~1 min

Job done.

Not ever saying kits are better than AG and when time allows I will dip my toe in the water on that front but for now can't beat the convenience of a kit.

Have had a kit on the length of time it took to write that instruction pamphlet which was very informative by the way...

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Could i just remind members (especially newer ones) that we never used to have a separate beer kit brewing forum it was introduced a few years ago at the request of several kit brewers as they got tired of their questions about making kits being answered in a similar way to the post from this thread below.

Moto748
OK, I'll say it: why bother with kits at all? Surely it's more satisfying to do it from scratch? Aren't kits a bit 'paint by numbers'?

Aamcle sums it up perfectly in his reply -

Aamcle
Ignore the AG fan boys, if your happily with what your doing (kits) then that's what counts.
Get better quality kits :) and read the thread about improving them.

 

[Gerryjo]

There's time saving to be had from kits for sure and also the option of pimping or partial mashing and that there is more control over what you brew as the choice of base malt,bittering etc has been done for you.With AG there is all this to do which others don't take into account when formulating a recipe which can be frustrating as you have no idea when starting out except help from others which also takes time researching whether it be grain,hops,yeast or water additions then confusion,the c0ck ups and that's before you start upgrading and get carried away.
There is so many variables to be considered and some do take it to extremes,but one thing is for sure you need to enjoy what you are doing to get a reward or you may lose confidence and Jack it altogether.

 

[moto748]

Sure, I get that, Chippy, and time is a big factor for a lot of people. I don't generally post in the 'Beer Kit' folder; I guess I picked this thread up from New Posts.

I'll say no more.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Sure, I get that, Chippy, and time is a big factor for a lot of people. I don't generally post in the 'Beer Kit' folder; I guess I picked this thread up from New Posts.

I'll say no more.

No worries Moto, suggesting members try AG is not a bad thing but back in the day things got a bit out of hand and some really did look down their noses at kit brewers -

It used to be fairly common sight in the general brewing forums a kit brewer would start a kit related thread and someone would post "don't bother with kits you will never get decent beer AG is the way to go" (and i am not exaggerating) it got to the stage where several kit brewers asked if they would have their own forum to get away from the AG brewers.