Camra

[stz]

there are plenty of micros nowadays, the quality is mediocre and they put too much effort in looking creative/different/artisan than in producing a sturdy reliable classic both-feet-on-the-ground quick-down-the-hatch bitter.

This is because there are already macro, regional and large family brewers who make very keenly priced, recognisable classic bitters and have some money to market it. If as a micro you decide to dip a toe into that market you'll quickly hear "how much?!" from the publican because you don't have the same economies of scale and you'll also hear how a lot of the regulars grumble and won't drink anything else. You'll spend more time selling than brewing.

There are also quite a lot of micro breweries in most areas now, the amount of competition means there are always a few who are happy to cut their own throat producing beer as cheaply as possible and run at or below cost. They might do this on only one or two lines which are subsidised by other lines in order to get a pub to take delivery of extra casks because it makes more sense to drive over with 3-4 rather than just the one. For others, nobody cares if it is any good or if it builds repeat business, it just needs to sell and guest beer from an unfamiliar brewery tends to sell very well because of tickers. These breweries will make a new beer every week and then try to flog it far and wide except most pubs won't want to take guest more once every few months so you are limited by the number of free trade pubs in your area. This can be a vicious downward cycle and many are just trying to stay afloat having entered the market focusing on the wrong sort of products.

So plenty of micros look at this mess and realise that the market is oversaturated, unwilling to readily accept new products except on price and still in decline so decide to play to their strengths, being creative, different, artisan and build value in their products and develop relationships with markets which are rapidly growing and will readily accept new products on quality not price. You get to spend more time brewing than selling then, you can't make enough of it if you get it right.

Later on when you've a steady income and some money to invest the trick then is once you are already delivering to every place in every city you can reach that will buy your beer and further growth requires a greater investment in transport than a couple of extra vessels you target the pubs in those areas you cover who previously rejected you as too expensive, too fussy, not what the regulars will drink etc and you squeeze in an extra tank or two just to make a few different (but high quality) traditional ales which you deliver at the same time for the extra 4-5 grand a week.

 

[An Ankoù]

Not a CAMRA member (less useful if you're not a Briton) but I have several of their books (Graham Wheeler) and wish we here had something alike. It's been too long too much pig swill, and even though there are plenty of micros nowadays, the quality is mediocre and they put too much effort in looking creative/different/artisan than in producing a sturdy reliable classic both-feet-on-the-ground quick-down-the-hatch bitter.

Where are you based, then, GerritT? Maybe we pioneers and political exiles should associate and form a Society for the Proliferation of Proper Quaffing Beer (SPPQB) or something.

 

[GerritT]

Where are you based, then, GerritT? Maybe we pioneers and political exiles should associate and form a Society for the Proliferation of Proper Quaffing Beer (SPPQB) or something.

Les Pays-Bas! Heineken and Grolsch have the majority of the market with their lagers, the rest is either cheaper or tastier (not both).

I already browsed the Carrefour site in preparation for my holiday to Normandy next month, got any tips on what to try and what to evade?

 

[Martin O]

Not a member myself but went to my first CAMRA festival yesterday in Leeds really enjoyed it. They had a good mix of traditional brewerys and newer ones like Northern Monk, North bar and local smaller Leeds ones. Had a good mix of beer plenty of milds, bitter, pale ale, stouts, sours and the odd neipa.

 

[CD]

Camra’s opposition to cask breathers has annoyed me, and doubtless many in the trade, for the last 19 years, and it’s taken them all that time to grudgingly admit they might have been wrong . Some of the reasons for their opposition are just laughable, for example according to Page 130 of the 2014 GBG, their use does not allow beer ‘to condition and mature naturally’.

In fact, as soon as air starts to dilute the CO2 above the beer in a cask, it starts to loose condition, whereas a cask breather will ensure that every pint pulled, from the first to the last, is in the same condition. And as STZ pointed out, the only ‘maturing’ beer is going to do once oxygen and airborne wild yeast come into contact with it, is to turn vinegary.

I reckon the next time the high-profile GBG Editor is served a pint from a freshly tapped cask, he should return it to the bar with the words – “This beer hasn’t conditioned and matured Landlord”, and see what happens!

 

[An Ankoù]

Les Pays-Bas! Heineken and Grolsch have the majority of the market with their lagers, the rest is either cheaper or tastier (not both).

I already browsed the Carrefour site in preparation for my holiday to Normandy next month, got any tips on what to try and what to evade?

Normandy (or at least Basse Normandie) and Brittany are pretty much quaffing deserts, are far as I can see. Best stick to cidre bouché and Calvados. Never thought of checking out the Carrefour website, though. I'll have a look and get back to you.

 

[Oneflewover]

Normandy (or at least Basse Normandie) and Brittany are pretty much quaffing deserts, are far as I can see. Best stick to cidre bouché and Calvados. Never thought of checking out the Carrefour website, though. I'll have a look and get back to you.

Seemed to me that it is all about the cider. I didn't find a decent local beer when I was en Bretagne recently. Carrefour carried some well priced Belgian ales though ...

 

[peebee]

Camra’s opposition to cask breathers has annoyed me, and doubtless many in the trade, for the last 19 years, and it’s taken them all that time to grudgingly admit they might have been wrong . Some of the reasons for their opposition are just laughable, for example according to Page 130 of the 2014 GBG, their use does not allow beer ‘to condition and mature naturally’.

In fact, as soon as air starts to dilute the CO2 above the beer in a cask, it starts to loose condition, whereas a cask breather will ensure that every pint pulled, from the first to the last, is in the same condition. And as STZ pointed out, the only ‘maturing’ beer is going to do once oxygen and airborne wild yeast come into contact with it, is to turn vinegary.

I reckon the next time the high-profile GBG Editor is served a pint from a freshly tapped cask, he should return it to the bar with the words – “This beer hasn’t conditioned and matured Landlord”, and see what happens!

But you are being just as guilty (more so?) of putting out duff information. "Condition" doesn't just mean CO2 condition, although that is a big part of it, "condition" covers all of the maturing process. "Cask breathers" only slow the loss of CO2 condition, they do not stop it until it's too late. "Cask breathers" are totally inappropriate for home-brew beer (see my arguments for using low-pressure LPG regulators instead of "breathers" here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv5tRM-5EQUhZbDNPdmV1bWc). And as I posted earlier in this thread, CAMRA do not actively oppose "cask breathers" but they don't encourage them either, which is about the right stance to take with them (they may of originally opposed them, but "then" is not "now").

 

[An Ankoù]

Cask breathers" are totally inappropriate for home-brew beer (see my arguments for using low-pressure LPG regulators instead of "breathers"

Check out Coffin Dodger's "Noddy" system. I reckon he's got it cracked.
Especially if you rack into a two gallon barrel and bottle the rest of the batch. The balloon would seem to have a capacity of about 4 gallons of gas at ambient pressure.

 

[An Ankoù]

Seemed to me that it is all about the cider. I didn't find a decent local beer when I was en Bretagne recently. Carrefour carried some well priced Belgian ales though ...

Which parts of Brittany did you go to? Should have stopped by for a gallon of mine! Visitors always welcome.

 

[Oneflewover]

Which parts of Brittany did you go to? Should have stopped by for a gallon of mine! Visitors always welcome.

We stayed just outside Pleudihen sur Rance, not far from Dinan. Lovely area. The Emerald Coast is beautiful. Were we anywhere near you then?

 

[An Ankoù]

We stayed just outside Pleudihen sur Rance, not far from Dinan. Lovely area. The Emerald Coast is beautiful. Were we anywhere near you then?

Dol de Bretagne, I know and that's not too far from where you were. No you have to drive South as far as you can while still staying in Brittany. Little place called Béganne. No night life, great beer!

 

[CD]

But you are being just as guilty (more so?) of putting out duff information. "Condition" doesn't just mean CO2 condition, although that is a big part of it, "condition" covers all of the maturing process. "Cask breathers" only slow the loss of CO2 condition, they do not stop it until it's too late. "Cask breathers" are totally inappropriate for home-brew beer (see my arguments for using low-pressure LPG regulators instead of "breathers" here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv5tRM-5EQUhZbDNPdmV1bWc). And as I posted earlier in this thread, CAMRA do not actively oppose "cask breathers" but they don't encourage them either, which is about the right stance to take with them (they may of originally opposed them, but "then" is not "now").

My comments on cask breathers are based on using one, together with a half-size beer engine, from 1987 to 1995, which was well before Camra objected to their use, and far from finding it totally inappropriate for home brew use, being extremely pleased with the result until its cylinder cracked.

I plead guilty to using the word ‘condition’ to imply solely the carbonation level, whereas as peebee correctly points out it can mean lots of things, and after reading his extremely detailed work on keeping home brewed beers, confess to having an extremely low tolerance to CO2 - I can only drink bottled or canned beer after de-gassing it by pouring it into large jug, and reckon champagne to be vastly over-rated!

 

[Drunkula]

champagne to be vastly over-rated!

Champagne is overrated because it tastes like extra-fizzy White Lightning. I call cheapy cider trampagne.

 

[GerritT]

Champagne is overrated because it tastes like extra-fizzy White Lightning. I call cheapy cider trampagne.

I am so gonna use that word when I'm at my brother-in-law's!

 

[peebee]

My comments on cask breathers are based on using one, together with a half-size beer engine, from 1987 to 1995, which was well before Camra objected to their use, and far from finding it totally inappropriate for home brew use, being extremely pleased with the result until its cylinder cracked.

I plead guilty to using the word ‘condition’ to imply solely the carbonation level, whereas as peebee correctly points out it can mean lots of things, and after reading his extremely detailed work on keeping home brewed beers, confess to having an extremely low tolerance to CO2 - I can only drink bottled or canned beer after de-gassing it by pouring it into large jug, and reckon champagne to be vastly over-rated!

You'll have to excuse me for having a rant, but I'm a bit protective about that work on cask conditioned (which you kindly complimented) for which I took some heavy criticism from both "sides" at the time of writing it. Not least from Graham W. (on another forum) because I'm advocating CO2 "top-pressure". As a result I had to carefully word it to ensure I'm only claiming to "emulate" cask conditioned beer in a home-brew environment. You could not trust folk to use these techniques in a commercial environment because the techniques would get abused. I did present that work for publication on this site so I wouldn't have to link to my "Google" storage, but it never came about probably because such an article would have a very minority appeal on this site. This site mainly favours "American" style keg "craft beer" <sic> which has been no bad thing for the home-brewing world as far greater numbers of folk now churn out palatable home-brew - one of my favourite brews is a "DIYDog" published recipe for "5am Saint" (American Amber style).

But I do get wound up by calls for CAMRA to relax their attitude to "cask breathers". I dug out your earlier posts looking for the "Noddy" system @An Ankoù mentioned above (https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/draught-beer.81405/) and was surprised by @foxy's post that CAMRA have relaxed their attitude towards "breathers" again, and don't keep Pubs using them excluded from their "book". I believe they should toughen up their stance instead. Making these exceptions is great where they are due, but opens the door to abuse and confusion. You've already got the likes of Brewdog churning out some very fizzy "cask beer" that fits the rules CAMRA draw up to have it accepted as "Real Ale"; the weakened stance of CAMRA allows Brewdog to walk all over their "rules" with offerings that are not at all in the spirit of what CAMRA originally stood for, and as a result help threaten a style of beer (British "Real Ale", err … <sic>, 'cos I must try to be impartial) all over again.

BTW: I'd have stuck me oar in if I'd seen your "draught-beer" thread at the time, but I was sticking my head into miscellaneous Sicilian volcanos during that period.

 

[-Bezza-]

ou've already got the likes of Brewdog churning out some very fizzy "cask beer" that fits the rules CAMRA draw up to have it accepted as "Real Ale"

This is sort of the problem though, isn't it? If you have an organisation that creates rules intended to demonstrate a superior product and does so with some degree of authority, people will push the boundaries of what fits within those rules as much as possible.

I think that CAMRA has served a noble purpose at a time when it was needed, but if they can't reform to reflect modern times, then perhaps we need another mark of quality on those good beers and good beer practices that don't fit the CAMRA scope/definition. Unfortunately, set against modern practices, a lot of stuff that CAMRA would champion comes across as twiggy in flavour and variable in quality.

I for one would like to see an organisation that came up with a way of vetting beer in a way that was a mark of its real quality, i.e. ingredients and brewing practices, but that cut across styles, e.g. wheat beer, cali common, APA and, dare I say it, lager. Perhaps even "Craft Beer Mark" in order to reclaim the name!

 

[peebee]

This is sort of the problem though, isn't it? …

It is a problem. I believe CAMRA need to be protecting the "British Real Ale" style like they've done in the past and not listen to this clamour of demands to broaden their scope to cover, for example, the new wave of "American" craft beer styles, because of some whim of what is in vogue at the moment. But not following contemporary tastes doesn't get the bills paid I guess. Meanwhile the "British Real Ale" style needs CAMRA more than ever.

But I don't think this is what you meant? … Yes, a new organisation which focuses on quality across styles would be reasonable.

 

[MickDundee]

It is a problem. I believe CAMRA need to be protecting the "British Real Ale" style like they've done in the past and not listen to this clamour of demands to broaden their scope to cover, for example, the new wave of "American" craft beer styles because of some whim of what is in vogue at the moment.

The craft beer thing has been going for 10 years or more now, how long does it have to go in before is stops being “some whim of what is in vogue?

 

[strange-steve]

Yes, a new organisation which focuses on quality across styles would be reasonable.

Isn't that what CAMRGB supposedly do?