Calcium Reducing Solution?

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Considering brewing a batch with my local (St Albans) water which is hard as nails. Previously I've driven across to see my folks in Malvern and used that as an opportunity to fill a couple of bins from the springs, which is basically mineral free.
Had a play with the water calculator on the forum and it's calling for 'Calcium Reducing Solution' - can someone educate me as to what that is please? I have Calcium and Magnesium Sulphate (and Camden tabs) on hand but haven't previously heard of CRS

Thanks in advance

 

[Horners]

CRS is carbonate reducing solution generally used to reduce alkalinity.

 

[marshbrewer]

CRS is a liquid that is a blend of food grade acids that reduce the alkalinity of water. It's a bit expensive, but works well. The water calculator on here usually has me adding it at a rate of 1ml/L of brewing water with my hard Lincolnshire water, but your dosage rate will differ depending on your water report / test.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

CRS is carbonate reducing solution generally used to reduce alkalinity.

Yes... I'd worked that out. But what is it chemically?

 

[strange-steve]

Hydrochloric and sulphuric acid blend.

 

[marshbrewer]

But what is it chemically?

Food grade hydrochloric and sulphuric acids, I believe

 

[marshbrewer]

Here is the datasheet for AMS (which is exactly the same thing, just different trade name)

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Thanks all :-)
Any advantage to using the CRS, versus aerating and boiling with Calcium Sulphate, which is what I've done before IIRC

 

[strange-steve]

Advantages are that it's quicker and much easier to accurately hit the desired alkalinity. One thing that is a possible disadvantage is that CRS adds sulphate and chloride in a fixed ratio that may not suit the style you're making, but generally this isn't an issue unless you're aiming for a particularly low mineral content for some reason.

 

[user 18729]

The issue with CRS is that it will actually add sulphate and chloride to your water, which if its high anyway may take it higher than your target profile. Worth looking at before using it

Edit- Steve beat me to it!

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Advantages are that it's quicker and much easier to accurately hit the desired alkalinity. One thing that is a possible disadvantage is that CRS adds sulphate and chloride in a fixed ratio that may not suit the style you're making, but generally this isn't an issue unless you're aiming for a particularly low mineral content for some reason.

Makes sense - thanks Steve

 

[JockyBrewer]

CRS will neutralise the alkalinity in water while raising the level of sulphate and chloride. It'll leave calcium levels unaffected.

Boiling precipitates calcium carbonate, so you'd reduce alkalinity and calcium levels.

I just looked up a water report (https://www.affinitywater.co.uk/docs/water-quality/AF088.pdf) for your area. That water is hard, and very similar to mine. For dark beers it's great because a bit of CRS is all you really need (whereas for very soft water you need to add some alkalinity which can be tricky). I used CRS exclusively for a long period of time and not had any problems making anything (and have been reasonably successful at competitions doing so), even pilsner.

If I was wanting to reproduce truly authentic Czech Pilsner or Munich Helles then I'd get some RO or bottled water.

 

[marshbrewer]

The only other very slight disadvantage to CRS / AMS is that as it's very much a UK product, not much used in the US, some water calculators in brewing software can't handle it (Brewfather, for instance) . But you can just use the calculator on this forum.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

CRS will neutralise the alkalinity in water while raising the level of sulphate and chloride. It'll leave calcium levels unaffected.

Boiling precipitates calcium carbonate, so you'd reduce alkalinity and calcium levels.

I just looked up a water report (https://www.affinitywater.co.uk/docs/water-quality/AF088.pdf) for your area. That water is hard, and very similar to mine. For dark beers it's great because a bit of CRS is all you really need (whereas for very soft water you need to add some alkalinity which can be tricky). I used CRS exclusively for a long period of time and not had any problems making anything (and have been reasonably successful at competitions doing so), even pilsner.

If I was wanting to reproduce truly authentic Czech Pilsner or Munich Helles then I'd get some RO or bottled water.

Cheers mate - yes, I tracked down that Affinity Water report last night... this water's got so much chalk in it that I reckon you could write on a blackboard with it...
"truly authentic Czech Pilsner or Munich Helles" ... Mmmmm I'd love a bit of that! But right now I'm doing a Pale Ale about 1037OG :-)

 

[JockyBrewer]

Cheers mate - yes, I tracked down that Affinity Water report last night... this water's got so much chalk in it that I reckon you could write on a blackboard with it...
"truly authentic Czech Pilsner or Munich Helles" ... Mmmmm I'd love a bit of that! But right now I'm doing a Pale Ale about 1037OG :-)

It'll be fine for making beers like that. Honestly most of London and the South East of England has water like that, and very few of the small and medium breweries use reverse osmosis systems.

 

[Galena]

Cheers mate - yes, I tracked down that Affinity Water report last night... this water's got so much chalk in it that I reckon you could write on a blackboard with it...
"truly authentic Czech Pilsner or Munich Helles" ... Mmmmm I'd love a bit of that! But right now I'm doing a Pale Ale about 1037OG :-)

I can ship you some of my water if you like , got a Pro Czech Pilsner brewery just up the road and dying to give it a go myself when I can afford to tie my brew fridge up for a couple of months.

 

[foxbat]

Why does anyone buy CRS now that phosporic acid is easily available? All the effects you want and none that you don't and is supported by all the calculators. Brewer's inertia I bet.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Why does anyone buy CRS now that phosporic acid is easily available? All the effects you want and none that you don't and is supported by all the calculators. Brewer's inertia I bet.

OK - interesting. I can see, for example, 'food grade phosphoric acid 85%' on eBay, but how would one calculate the dosage?

 

[JockyBrewer]

It can (depending upon the circumstances) precipitate calcium in a way that it's no longer available to the brewing process.

Here's what happened when I tried reducing the alkalinity in sparge water with phosphoric acid as suggested by Bru'n Water.

After heating the water went milky:

After cooling you can see a fairly hefty layer of white precipitate. That's Calcium hydrogen phosphate.

Calcium is important in the brewing process so I'd prefer not to be removing it. With low mineral water it's probably fine, but not in South East England with high levels of calcium in the water.

Additionally phosphate does have a taste, so if you overdo it you will be able to taste it.

 

[foxbat]

OK - interesting. I can see, for example, 'food grade phosphoric acid 85%' on eBay, but how would one calculate the dosage?

With a brewing water calculator where you enter your grist, your base water and your proposed salts additions. The calculator then tells you how much acid to add to achieve your target mash pH. I use @mabrungard's Bru'n Water spreadsheet.

Not sure I'd trust ebay to be telling the truth about something being food grade unless the seller has a strong reputation. Phosphoric acid is available at the usual homebrew suppliers (Geterbrewed, the homebrew company, brewuk etc).