Calcium content in brew water.

[Marky B]

Hey fellas

I live in Hertfordshire where we have really scummy hard water. I measured it from the tap using a Salifert CA Profi Test and recorded a value of 140. This surprised me because when I looked up the recommended value for Calcium on a Murphy & Son Technical information sheet for a bitter the values shown were 180 - 220, so rather surprisingly I concluded my water, despite being awful, didn't have enough Calcium so every brew i've since done, with very mixed results it has to be said, I've added Gypsum 7-10g for a 28l full mash. I was chatting to a great guy from the local water softener shop the other day and explaining this conundrum and he explained the values from the Salifert Kit and the Murphy spec sheet were not the same. The Salifert is referring to Ca whilst the Murphy sheet is referring to CaCO3 so therefore my reading from the test kit should be multiplied by 2.5 which would give a reading of 350 which would make sense as the water here is so dire !

Armed with this knowledge I tested boiled water and got a value of 70 Ca or 175 CaCO3 doing the aforementioned conversion so boiling reduces Ca by approx 50%. So by my reckoning if I boil say 20 litres the day before brew day and top up to 28 the next day from the tap I should be in the correct ballpark - thus 20 litres at 140 CacO3 = 2800 plus 8 litres at 350 CaCO3 = 2800 so total of 5600 divided by the total of 28l should get me to around 200 CaCO3 which is hopefully where i want to be ! If any of you clever chaps on here would be so kind as to check my workings and assumptions I'd be most grateful !

 

[Ben034]

I think your method is quite a long way to reduce the alkalinity of your water and get the calcium to the level you want. Have a good read of this thread and the accompanying threads:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...vanced-water-treatment-in-post-1.64822/unread
I think boiling water is quite a lengthy and relatively expensive way when you can add CRS or a similar acid to get where you need to be for many styles, especially in your case a bitter.

 

[strange-steve]

@Marky B no offence to your water guy but he's talking ********. The Murphy's data sheet, as you rightly say, recommends 180 - 220 ppm calcium. There's no conversion required, it's not calcium as CaCO3, and you've measured your tap water as 140 ppm calcium, again it doesn't need any conversion factor.

It seems you're getting calcium and alkalinity conflated. Alkalinity, which is measured as CaCO3 (but doesn't need any conversion), is recommended by the data sheet as 30 - 50 ppm, which sounds about right to me, and you'll need the Salifert KH kit to measure your tap water alkalinity.

 

[Clint]

Trust strange-steve...water jedi...he talks more sense than my mrs.

 

[Marky B]

@Marky B no offence to your water guy but he's talking ********. The Murphy's data sheet, as you rightly say, recommends 180 - 220 ppm calcium. There's no conversion required, it's not calcium as CaCO3, and you've measured your tap water as 140 ppm calcium, again it doesn't need any conversion factor.

It seems you're getting calcium and alkalinity conflated. Alkalinity, which is measured as CaCO3 (but doesn't need any conversion), is recommended by the data sheet as 30 - 50 ppm, which sounds about right to me, and you'll need the Salifert KH kit to measure your tap water alkalinity.

lol thanks so much Steve makes perfect sense and i've seen your previous guides, glad to have the Water Guru in my corner !!

 

[Marky B]

Trust strange-steve...water jedi...he talks more sense than my mrs.

 

[Pennine]

200ppm of calcium seems very high? 10g of gypsum is going to give you very high sulfate too. you may want to add some calcium chloride as well. I'm not a water guy though so listen to Steve.

 

[peebee]

200ppm of calcium is actually very middle-of-the-road. Americans (mainly) seem to have a weird aversion to calcium (in relation to beer) and at the moment much of the published information comes from that direction so we end up picking up these weird aversions too. Same goes for sulphate. There's nothing wrong with 300 or 400ppm of sulphate, although the upper end of that amount does have some odd effects on flavours which do not go down well with the wrong beers. Calcium is the main source of "permanent hardness" in water.

We're not too good with water reports over here either. @strange-steve is good enough to include the "as" but many water companies don't seem to bother. "As CaCO3" is a convenient unit to measure things with, especially "Alkalinity", but take the "as" out and people start thinking there is CaCO3 in the water (most, nearly all, UK tap water has none at all in it, "Alkalinity is mainly the result of dissolved bicarbonate). Bicarbonate is the main source of "temporary hardness" and "Alkalinity" in water ("temporary hardness" or "carbonate hardness" is an arcane concept, much better dealt with by the "Alkalinity" concept - I think that's right, but some think "temporary hardness" and "Alkalinity" are the same, and that is wrong).

Water hardness and Alkalinity are kooky enough even without getting the wrong idea about them. Listen to Steve; he's doing the hard work and shielding you from some of the craziness about water. (Don't listen to me … people seem to go crazy doing that).

 

[trueblue]

Any water authority report will be a compilation of tests carried out at numerous sites in your area at various times throughout the year so may not be what is coming out of your tap. For around £25 you can get an accurate assessment from Phoenix Analytical

 

[strange-steve]

200ppm of calcium seems very high?

It's more than is needed but also probably not anything to be concerned about. Personally I wouldn't go higher than 200ppm, just as an arbitrary upper limit, but then I have no need to cos my tap water only has 20 - 30ppm calcium to start with.

 

[Marky B]

200ppm of calcium seems very high? 10g of gypsum is going to give you very high sulfate too. you may want to add some calcium chloride as well. I'm not a water guy though so listen to Steve.

thanks very much for the advice !

 

[Marky B]

Any water authority report will be a compilation of tests carried out at numerous sites in your area at various times throughout the year so may not be what is coming out of your tap. For around £25 you can get an accurate assessment from Phoenix Analytical

Thanks for that - I was going to send a sample to Murphy & Sons for analysis they seem to know their onions and the guy there told me they send you the report including the ratios of various salt additions needed based on the individual sample for around £27

 

[Marky B]

@Marky B no offence to your water guy but he's talking ********. The Murphy's data sheet, as you rightly say, recommends 180 - 220 ppm calcium. There's no conversion required, it's not calcium as CaCO3, and you've measured your tap water as 140 ppm calcium, again it doesn't need any conversion factor.

It seems you're getting calcium and alkalinity conflated. Alkalinity, which is measured as CaCO3 (but doesn't need any conversion), is recommended by the data sheet as 30 - 50 ppm, which sounds about right to me, and you'll need the Salifert KH kit to measure your tap water alkalinity.

Hi Steve I do have the alkalinity test and i use AMS at around 30 - 35 ml for a 28l full mash to get me to the desired level. Last brew was reading 44.75 - going to get Murphy & Sons to do a proper analysis for me as I'm obviously still confused or even a bit thick !

 

[strange-steve]

Hi Steve I do have the alkalinity test and i use AMS at around 30 - 35 ml for a 28l full mash to get me to the desired level. Last brew was reading 44.75 - going to get Murphy & Sons to do a proper analysis for me as I'm obviously still confused or even a bit thick !

What was reading 44.75? The alkalinity? In what unit? Before or after treatment?
You're not thick, it's a complex subject made all the more so by a variety of baffling units.
Fwiw if I were to get an analysis done I would use Phoenix Analytical as mentioned by @trueblue rather than Murphy's.

 

[Marky B]

What was reading 44.75? The alkalinity? In what unit? Before or after treatment?
You're not thick, it's a complex subject made all the more so by a variety of baffling units.
Fwiw if I were to get an analysis done I would use Phoenix Analytical as mentioned by @trueblue rather than Murphy's.

Hi Steve yeh 44.75 was the final reading of the brew liquor for Alkalinity before adding the grain in fact the readings were Alk 44.75, Ca 200 and PH 5.5, Alk and Ca were tested using Salifert Kits and PH on a digital meter. This was after adding 35ml AMS, 7.5g Gypsum, and 1 Campden tablet for an American Pale Ale. I tend to add those quantities based on previous experience and then test the water once added to save on the testing solutions usage - another little tip picked up on here. A reading i did a while back on straight tap water came out as Alk 281, PH 7.0 and Ca140. Really appreciate all the help and advice on here

 

[trueblue]

I don't have any confidence in Murphy's. I bought some sulphuric acid from them in the days when they sold direct to home brewer. They stated the strength at 25% but the first couple of brews using my water was coming out wrong so I found out how to test the strength myself and it worked out over 30%, does not instill confidence. When they say they will tell you what salts addition to use they will probably just recommend their own product DWB a sort of one size fits all solution rather than the best solution.

 

[Marky B]

I don't have any confidence in Murphy's. I bought some sulphuric acid from them in the days when they sold direct to home brewer. They stated the strength at 25% but the first couple of brews using my water was coming out wrong so I found out how to test the strength myself and it worked out over 30%, does not instill confidence. When they say they will tell you what salts addition to use they will probably just recommend their own product DWB a sort of one size fits all solution rather than the best solution.

thanks for that info trueblue !