Brewing on Kirstie's Vintage Home

[Jeltz]

Mrs was watching Kirstie last night and I caught the tail end of a bit on brewing. I've re watched it on the 4oD website and it was quite enjoyable albeit not 100% accurate and seemed to suggest that you can brew for parties and weddings without any mention of duty.

starts at 23:25 on http://www.channel4.com/programmes/kirs ... od#3445203

 

[fbsf]

It did seem to suggest that, didn't it. Nice that the basics are being brought to the public's attention, just a shame it was so brief!

 

[calumscott]

albeit not 100% accurate and seemed to suggest that you can brew for parties and weddings without any mention of duty.

There is no duty to pay if nobody pays you...

 

[fbsf]

What about if the premises is licensed?

 

[calumscott]

Ah...

OK, that's a massive grey area into which I haven't delved!

Do we have a publican in our ranks??

 

[rpt]

There is no duty to pay if nobody pays you...

You are exempt from registration with HMRC if:

You do not need to apply for registration to produce beer in the following
circumstances:
brewing solely for your own domestic consumption, or
brewing only for research or experimental purposes

So is a party your own domestic consumption?

 

[calumscott]

There is no duty to pay if nobody pays you...

You are exempt from registration with HMRC if:

You do not need to apply for registration to produce beer in the following
circumstances:
brewing solely for your own domestic consumption

Read that again... It's actually your own "domestic USE". That then comes down to reasonableness and it is reasonable to assume that domestic use includes anything that you would normally do with beer you bought from the supermarket, drink it, give it to your mates to try, etc etc.

For our wedding we bought a lot (really, a hell of a lot!! :lol: ) of beer from the supermarket (and a couple of breweries) and served it, at no charge, to our guests.

So it is perfectly reasonable to call serving beer to your friends and family domestic use.

The difficult bit is around licenced premises - if they are licenced, they are going to charge you corkage, if they make money serving your beer (the corkage) then have you then "bought" your own beer thereby making duty payable...?

 

[jonewer]

I have to sit through 5 ads every time I move my place? haha! 4oD can kiss my ring.

 

[Jeltz]

I think that legally it would be tricky; domestic either relates to your home or your family so either it would have to be consumed on your own premises or consumed by those related to you.

Either way I think that if you tried to serve home brewed beer in a decent quantity at any event and HMRC found out they would be after you and it would be down to you to prove that you didn't have to pay them.

 

[Jeltz]

I have to sit through 5 ads every time I move my place? haha! 4oD can kiss my ring.

I don't. I have ad block plus installed though if that makes a difference.

 

[calumscott]

I think that legally it would be tricky; domestic either relates to your home or your family so either it would have to be consumed on your own premises or consumed by those related to you.

Either way I think that if you tried to serve home brewed beer in a decent quantity at any event and HMRC found out they would be after you and it would be down to you to prove that you didn't have to pay them.

Yes, but it's domestic USE - so USED by you or your family. Serving it at your wedding is absolutely "used by you", you use it like any other beer you could have bought.

 

[Jeltz]

I still wouldn't fancy arguing the toss with HMRC over that and I think you would end up spending more trying to prove you are right than it would cost in duty.

 

[Loetz]

Do tax inspectors regularly come to weddings and ask questions about the beer? :wha:

 

[wherespete]

Do tax inspectors regularly come to weddings and ask questions about the beer? :wha:

I think they should!

Hello, I am a taksh inshpektor jusht checking your beer. Hic!

This ish my shiksh wedding today. hic!

:sick:

 

[Dronfieldbrewer]

Does anyone know the answer to this one as yet.

Cutting a long story short, I have been approached to help organize a party to commemorate the life of a good dear friend. He died from cancer last year, he was the life and sole of the local village, had a massive circle of friends due to him being in a rock band and will be sadly missed by all.

The venue for this party is to be in a barn on a friends farm, we are to have a number of bands (who knew John really well), a hog roast and a massive raffle of stuff donated by local companies that worked with John. The idea is that this is a party by invitation only (about 250), the people invited will be asked for a voluntary donation to the hospice that cared so well for John in his last few weeks and to buy raffle tickets.

I think that it would be nice for me to offer a drink of beer to the guests to celebrate Johns life. This to be at no cost, no monies changing hands etc...I do not want to fall foul of any laws. I personally see this as just a big house party but you may know better??

 

[bobsbeer]

I personally see this as just a big house party but you may know better??

I would see it the same. Unless John had a circle of friends in HMRC I would say you will be fine. No money is changing hands and I am sure you will get feedback so probably comes under the umbrella of 'brewing only for research or experimental purposes', but others may have a more legally correct answer.

 

[Dronfieldbrewer]

Cheers Bob. Thats the way it is. Its just the size of the party....250 is a lot of beer, probably 4-6 casks

 

[bigdave]

Thing is, you are supplying a substantial amount of alcohol to a charity event with the intention of helping raise money. Like it or not, simply requesting a donation in exchange for the music, food and drink is considered selling and so HMRC would expect a cut. You'd also require a health and safety inspection on you brewing premises to insure that in the process of brewing, you're not going to kill anyone.

Something else to consider is that 250 is about 247 people more than you can have in a venue listening to a single source of music with out a performance license from the council (who by the way will also see the distribution of alcohol as selling and will require the event to hold a license).

Having been to many such charity events on private farm land, in the middle of nowhere, intended for friends and family only, I've seen how strict the rules are and yes the local council will come and check on you!

 

[rpt]

I think you could be in trouble at such an event as it is not domestic. Domestic is generally taken to mean family and friends - you will be inviting a much wider circle of people (are they really your friends?).

If you are playing music you will need PPL and PRS licences, unless all the music is played by the band and written by them. These licences aren't too expensive (for example, for a one off event like this PPL is about £15) and you'd probably get away not having them but there are lots of things to consider.

If the band is amplified or you are playing records (or the radio, TV etc) then you will also need a licence from the council.

 

[calumscott]

Apply the same test.

You could go to the supermarket and buy bottled beer duty paid. You could go to your local brewery and buy kegs duty paid and give that beer, for free, to your guests. But, I do think this is a slightly greyer area than the wedding scenario.

If it were, say, a family member of departed, the executor etc who was organising the whole thing AND doing the brewing I would suggest it would be fine. It's their party and they're catering so if THEY brewed it its their beer and they can use it in this way - just as they would with bought beer.

To ask someone else to brew for it will be the contentious point.

I don't think the "intention to raise money for charity" is a problem as that's not the purpose of the event, the event is a wake first and foremost.

The music and performance licence is a biggie though. Self-catering wedding venues have this covered already so not really a consideration, performances happen, service of alcohol (with or without the exchange of money) happens and it is all covered by the venue itself.

On balance I'd say that while the chances of being "caught" are pretty slim, it would be easier for HMRC to prosecute if they did come knocking and with that number of people attending the chances of an eyebrow or two being raised by those not attending and the chances of one or two of them not playing nice and causing a nuisance would be too high for me...