You can't do that, it's almost as bad as not boiling your wort for at least an hour
Bread ****
- Thread starter foxy
- Start date
Help Support The Homebrew Forum:
I often find I need more water than dough recipes call for; and even then it's hard to knead properly because the gluten is so tight.
I've always just put it down to variations in locally-sourced flour and/or my rubbish kneading technique, and worked round it.
But today I thought I'd make chapatis so I got some off-the-shelf 'Elephant' brand Atta flour, and I noticed the effect again.
It got me thinking... and on the off-chance I looked up the effect of hard water on gluten development.
According to an article in Bakers' Journal (reproduced here):
Bingo. My water is extremely hard: around 350ppm.
Don't know why I didn't think of this before: I'm always fighting the alkalinity to get the mash pH right.
It's probably even more significant in my sourdough bread because of the buffering effect on the pH for the lactic acid bacteria.
Time to dig out the RO filter...
I've always just put it down to variations in locally-sourced flour and/or my rubbish kneading technique, and worked round it.
But today I thought I'd make chapatis so I got some off-the-shelf 'Elephant' brand Atta flour, and I noticed the effect again.
It got me thinking... and on the off-chance I looked up the effect of hard water on gluten development.
According to an article in Bakers' Journal (reproduced here):
Bingo. My water is extremely hard: around 350ppm.
Don't know why I didn't think of this before: I'm always fighting the alkalinity to get the mash pH right.
It's probably even more significant in my sourdough bread because of the buffering effect on the pH for the lactic acid bacteria.
Time to dig out the RO filter...
Dutto
Landlord.
I didn’t think of it either!
Quick check at Anglian Water shows a Calcium Carbonate and Calcium total of 355.6ppm!
Not only do I seem to use more water than a recipe calls for, I also need at least 4.5 hours before a loaf does the “double in size” trick and becomes big enough to bake!
So far, I’ve blamed my Sourdough Starter, or for ordinary loaves I’ve added three or more times the recommended amount of Allisons Dried Yeast!
I even gave away a Panasonic Bread Maker ‘cos it stopped making “decent bread”!
Of course, brewing is different (Doh!) so since we moved I have brewed as follows, after checking the hardness of my tap water:
- Beer - 75% of tap water.
- IPA’s - 50% of tap water.
- Lager - 25% tap water.
- Wine - 0% tap water.
I will bake a loaf tomorrow, using my existing Sourdough starter but with Spring Water: and let you know how I get on.
:hat:
OK, it probably won't come as too much of a surprise that TETB is going to overcomplicate this...
20.0g of Atta flour in each bowl, 10ml of either RO and Tap water added with the graduated pipette; then the labels go on the underneath of the bowl and I swap them round a few times so it's a blind trial.
After initial mixing. They both could have done with a drop more water to be honest, but should be OK for a comparative trial.
I'd say one of the two felt a bit softer than the other and the water went in more easily - but I don't know at this stage whether that was the RO or the Tap.
Identical (near enough) kneading for 5 mins...
Right. Dough is now resting for 30mins, then I'll check whether there's any noticeable difference in the gluten...
20.0g of Atta flour in each bowl, 10ml of either RO and Tap water added with the graduated pipette; then the labels go on the underneath of the bowl and I swap them round a few times so it's a blind trial.
After initial mixing. They both could have done with a drop more water to be honest, but should be OK for a comparative trial.
I'd say one of the two felt a bit softer than the other and the water went in more easily - but I don't know at this stage whether that was the RO or the Tap.
Identical (near enough) kneading for 5 mins...
Right. Dough is now resting for 30mins, then I'll check whether there's any noticeable difference in the gluten...
I'm thinking I might split my starter and do a couple of feed/discard cycles using RO to let it adjust first...
OK resting complete, and I 'unblinded' the trial.
The dough made with the RO definitely seems a little more extensible
In reality however both samples are too stiff to make a proper comparison.
I'm going to repeat the test with a little more water.
Stay tuned for more riveting chapati action.
![BREWING THERMOMETER STICKERS ACCURATELY MONITOR FERMENTING BEER & WINE LIQUID TEMPERATURES 5PCS HOME BREW SPIRITS WINE LCD ADHESIVE [US]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/311DDjo2X3L._SL500_.jpg)
Hmmm - do you know what, at least as far a chapatis are concerned I think there is a small difference - but nothing really eye-poppingOK resting complete, and I 'unblinded' the trial.
The dough made with the RO definitely seems a little more extensible
In reality however both samples are too stiff to make a proper comparison.
I'm going to repeat the test with a little more water.
Stay tuned for more riveting chapati action.
I'd say the RO dough maybe mixed in a little easier at the start; but in all honesty after resting they both rolled out about the same - and if anything the tap-water one actually puffed up better !!
Jury's still out for me. @Dutto I'm really interested to hear how it goes with your SD loaf :hat:
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
- Messages
- 6,866
- Reaction score
- 7,069
Why don't you just add vinegar to your tap water? The yeast will thank you for it as well.Hmmm - do you know what, at least as far a chapatis are concerned I think there is a small difference - but nothing really eye-popping
I'd say the RO dough maybe mixed in a little easier at the start; but in all honesty after resting they both rolled out about the same - and if anything the tap-water one actually puffed up better !!
Jury's still out for me. @Dutto I'm really interested to hear how it goes with your SD loaf :hat:
Fair question @foxy but the taste threshold is sensitive with acetic acid I’m not sure I’d want to risk it :-)
I think as a first step I’ll eliminate the carbonate buffer and let the lactic acid bacteria do their thang
Dutto
Landlord.
It’s a thought, but I already have an inline water softener to (hopefully) extend the life of my pipework, boiler and radiators.
I say “hopefully” because even with the water softener SWMBO still has to clean out the electric kettle every month, so God only knows what the water is doing to our pipe work!
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
- Messages
- 6,866
- Reaction score
- 7,069
I have soft water and still use vinegar, it extends the life of the bread and drops the pH to a level the yeast will work better in. I add 10 ml of vinegar to 310 ml of water.
Dutto
Landlord.
I’ll give it a try in about a week …
… or maybe Monday if tomorrow’s effort goes belly-up!
PS
Extending the life usually isn’t a problem, but in the hot weather we had last week, I had to cut a bit of mould off the end of a loaf after only 5 days!
… or maybe Monday if tomorrow’s effort goes belly-up!
PS
Extending the life usually isn’t a problem, but in the hot weather we had last week, I had to cut a bit of mould off the end of a loaf after only 5 days!
Dutto
Landlord.
Well, that experiment didn’t go very well! Nearly SEVEN AND A HALF HOURS of proving @ 24.5*C!
Recipe:
Now the baked bread at 8pm!
Give it 30 minutes to cool and I’ll cut the crust off and have it buttered with a cup of coffee for supper!
(*)
The Starter and Plain Flour included +/-5% of Wholemeal Flour.
(**)
The water used had only 50ppm Calcium Carbonate.
Recipe:
- 180g Sourdough Starter (*)
- 420g Plain Flour (*)
- 5g Salt
- Warm water to mix (**)
Now the baked bread at 8pm!
Give it 30 minutes to cool and I’ll cut the crust off and have it buttered with a cup of coffee for supper!
(*)
The Starter and Plain Flour included +/-5% of Wholemeal Flour.
(**)
The water used had only 50ppm Calcium Carbonate.
Last edited:
Do you keep your starter in the fridge? I find the activity level of mine is better if I take it out a couple of days before I bake, and feed it a few times
Dutto
Landlord.
I do indeed!
I usually take the Starter out the night before and give it a 100g flour + 100g water feed.
This time I didn’t ‘cos I thought it may explode into activity with the low ppm water! Big mistake!
I will get back to my normal regime next week, see what happens and Post on here!
Here’s hoping!
BTW the 7+ hour loaf tastes fine with loads of very small cavities.
I'll keep my fingers crossed... I too used to take mine out and feed it the night before; but I've since discovered that if I take it out two days before and give it an intermediate feed it perks up considerably.I do indeed!
I usually take the Starter out the night before and give it a 100g flour + 100g water feed.
This time I didn’t ‘cos I thought it may explode into activity with the low ppm water! Big mistake!
I will get back to my normal regime next week, see what happens and Post on here!
Here’s hoping!
BTW the 7+ hour loaf tastes fine with loads of very small cavities.
I agree: longer proving time = better flavour :-) The only problem is that with a very long proof the gluten structure tends to suffer...
Crappyfish
Landlord.
My starter is in the fridge and i feed Evey now and again. I fed it regularly with even weights of flour and water and chucked some away etc. It seemed no different from feeding it every now and again about once a week or when I remember which ever comes first.
Basil & olive focaccia - Mmmmmm
Greater love hath no man than this: that he should stagger home from the Great British Beer Festival at 23:45 and feed his SD starter in preparation for baking in the morning…
Anyone use a tangzhong/roux in their bread? I've just made one and am leaving it to cool before I make a loaf in the morning. I'm curious as to how much "fresher" the loaf feels on the second day using it.
Cheers Tom
Cheers Tom
