Bottle vs keg: same batch

[Sandimas]

I often half-bottle and half-keg batches, although some beers I bottle the lot, usually hoppy IPAs so I can store them in the fridge (I have no temp control with the kegs). So until now I haven't had a hoppy beer in the keg, I usually put my ales in there.

I recently half-bottled half-kegged a fairly hoppy Golden Ale made with Styrian Goldings. Been drinking the keg but thought I'd try a bottle last night, it could have been a different beer, most of the hoppiness had disappeared. Doesn't appear to be infected, I'll try another one tonight, but any thoughts as to why this happened?

 

[Libigage]

I always bottle 4 to 6 bottles and keg the rest, I use carbination drops for the bottles and c02 for the keg. My kegged beer is ready to drink once carbinated and I usually leave the bottles for 4 weeks before I try one. I don't think that I have had any bottles that come anywhere near as good as my kegged beer. This is why I'm considering buying an itap, then I will make just enough to fill my kegs and if I need to empty a keg for my next brew I can bottle it from the keg knowing what it taste like. But the answer to you question is I don't know but I have asked the same question before

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I read a research paper that found crown cap liners absorb all the hoppy goodness from your beer, quickly too.

 

[BlackRegent]

I read a research paper that found crown cap liners absorb all the hoppy goodness from your beer, quickly too.

I wouldn't mind reading that if you can recall the source. I'm someone who has gone the other way with their packaging. I started off kegging (and still do) but I've started bottling a lot more.

@darrellm would you mind sharing the receipt for your golden ale. I'm a big fan of Styrian goldings and it sounds right up my street.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I can’t now find the document but here’s a link to the abstract…

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1094/ASBCJ-46-0104

 

[hoppyscotty]

I tend to bottle malt forward beers and bottle condition/carbonate as these benefit more from longer conditioning time so more convenient to bottle and store in a cool corner of my garage. But for hop forward beers like hoppy IPA's I'll keg and force carbonate...got to brink them while they're fresh! I do have a home made kegarator though so makes serving from a keg easy. Also can draw off the odd bottle or so with one of those cheap counter pressure bottle fillers. Would love a canning set up but way too spendy.

 

[Sandimas]

@darrellm would you mind sharing the receipt for your golden ale. I'm a big fan of Styrian goldings and it sounds right up my street.

Here you go. I used Magnum for bittering as I wanted a clean bitterness to help the late hops shine, but use what you have, Target works well in this too and gives it more of an edge. I used extra-pale MO as that was what I had at the time. Fermented with MJ Liberty Bell to bring out the hop flavour.

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Original Gravity (OG): 1.044 (°P): 11.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (°P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.32 %
Colour (SRM): 5.7 (EBC): 11.3
Bitterness (IBU): 40.5 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 68

Grain Bill
----------------
4.162 kg Maris Otter - Extra Pale (89.33%)
0.388 kg Munich I (8.32%)
0.110 kg Crystal 60 standard (2.35%)

Hop Bill
----------------
28.0 g Magnum Leaf (11.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.2 g/L)
33.0 g Styrian Golding Leaf (4.4% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (1.4 g/L)
33.0 g Styrian Golding Leaf (4.4% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (1.4 g/L)

 

[foxy]

A paragraph from an interview with Ken Grossman.

We have a very advanced research and development team that I meet with every week to go over new ideas and discuss results. For instance, there might be a new bottle-cap lining material we want to try. Most liners are made out of PVC, or polyvinyl chloride, which is banned in many European countries. Ours are not--we use a blend of food-safe plastics. We've been working to find the Holy Grail of bottle-cap liners--something that doesn't impart any flavor or odor while preventing oxygen from migrating back through the plastic into the beer. A lot of our research has been done around finding material that doesn't scalp, or absorb the aromas from the beer. I'm techy, and finding the Holy Grail of bottle-cap linings is really important to me.
https://www.inc.com/magazine/201304/liz-welch/the-way-i-work-ken-grossman-sierra-nevada.html

 

[EsterBanana]

I always bottle 4 to 6 bottles and keg the rest, I use carbination drops for the bottles and c02 for the keg. My kegged beer is ready to drink once carbinated and I usually leave the bottles for 4 weeks before I try one. I don't think that I have had any bottles that come anywhere near as good as my kegged beer. This is why I'm considering buying an itap, then I will make just enough to fill my kegs and if I need to empty a keg for my next brew I can bottle it from the keg knowing what it taste like. But the answer to you question is I don't know but I have asked the same question before

Haha, know that you are totally enabling me in my beer gear addiction right now

Damn kegs on my mind again...

Super interesting re. the plastic in the bottle caps... I don't use them but wow!

 

[fgoulding]

I would love to buy an itap but I just can't justify it right now as only fill a few bottles every now and then (mainly for friends). So, I tend to use a 19L corny and a 5L mini-keg for each of my brews. But now "my" gear addiction monster has been awoken again :-O

 

[Big_Eight]

I read a research paper that found crown cap liners absorb all the hoppy goodness from your beer, quickly too.

This is the first time I've come across this. Thanks for pointing it out. Sounds like some extra dry hopping will be in order when I'm bottling a batch verse kegging.

I've always thought it was oxidation since hopped up beers like IPA are super sensitive to it which is why I try and drink them as fresh as I can.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

This is the first time I've come across this. Thanks for pointing it out. Sounds like some extra dry hopping will be in order when I'm bottling a batch verse kegging.

I've always thought it was oxidation since hopped up beers like IPA are super sensitive to it which is why I try and drink them as fresh as I can.

A couple of other things you may not have considered for super-hopped beers; If you’re brewing all-grain, put some high-alpha hops in the mash with the grain at the rate of 1-2g/l. The alpha acids “complex” copper ions which are pro-oxidative and bond strongly with poly phenols which are abundant in highly hopped beers. When bottling leave minimal head space, the oxygen in the head space is enough to oxidise your beer. Use pellets for late dry hopping, air (oxygen) trapped between the leaves on leaf hops will also oxidise your beer. Earlier in the fermentation (days 0-3) leaf hops are okay because oxygen is initially consumed by the yeast and any excess is scrubbed by the CO2 from vigorous fermentation.

Doing these things I’m able to get pretty good results without closed transfers and using an ordinary fermentation bucket.

 

[Big_Eight]

A couple of other things you may not have considered for super-hopped beers; If you’re brewing all-grain, put some high-alpha hops in the mash with the grain at the rate of 1-2g/l. The alpha acids “complex” copper ions which are pro-oxidative and bond strongly with poly phenols which are abundant in highly hopped beers. When bottling leave minimal head space, the oxygen in the head space is enough to oxidise your beer. Use pellets for late dry hopping, air (oxygen) trapped between the leaves on leaf hops will also oxidise your beer. Earlier in the fermentation (days 0-3) leaf hops are okay because oxygen is initially consumed by the yeast and any excess is scrubbed by the CO2 from vigorous fermentation.

Doing these things I’m able to get pretty good results without closed transfers and using an ordinary fermentation bucket.

Thanks for all the good information.

I'll have to try out the high AA hops in the mash. Thanks for the tip.

When I bottle I try and leave as little headspace as possible. Hop wise I use mainly pellets and get good results. I've had my IPA's come out pretty decent using a carboy and bottling bucket being mindful to avoid any splashing during the transfer phase.

The cap liner sucking up the flavor and aroma really threw me though I hadn't seen that before.

 

[Beermonster66]

Does the yeast not use up any oxygen in the bottle headspace?

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Does the yeast not use up any oxygen in the bottle headspace?

Yes but it takes time and the bigger the head space the more likely there will be more than the yeast can use.

 

[Tommo 2]

Yes but it takes time and the bigger the head space the more likely there will be more than the yeast can use.
[/QUOTE. When bottling I use a little bottler which will leave apparently the perfect amount of head space , would you agree with that or do you think the bottles need topping up more , and if so , how without causing to much oxidisation?

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I’d say 1cm is enough. I think @Clint touches the tip of his bottler against the side of the bottle to top up.