Belt in Oil

[hoppyscotty]

very interesting, thanks for posting. Reminiscent of the BMW swirl flap issue around 15 years ago - a complex and high maintenance system delivers a marginal MPG improvement but destroys the engine when it goes wrong. Just crazy. As others have said, as cars get older it becomes much more likely that a mechanic wont use exactly the right oil, or will miss a belt change - definitely an argument for keeping things simple and low risk

Manufacturers are not doing This for fun…the ever tightening regulations demand it of them. Plenty of belt driven cars out there going on to very high mileage. Just need to maintain them and maintenance is the responsibility of the owner. Chain driven engines need maintenance too and do occasionally fail usually because owners become complacent and don’t realise that though you might not need to replace a chain you often do have to replace tensioners or slipper pads or something.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Just need to maintain them and maintenance is the responsibility of the owner

Thus was addressed earlier in the thread they need a specific oil and a mechanic that knows the car has two cam belts, when you take the old car your back street garage they are going to put oil of a certain grade in it not the recommenced oil which will kill the belt if you and they are unaware there is a belt inside and ot doesn't get changed

 

[dad_of_jon]

There is also the issue of some engine flush products sold as a quick buck for the garage - I've been offered this in halfords typically to increase it's £££ damaging the belts. PSA group have warned about this. So not only does servicing need to be done properly but no incompatible engine flush. A little old lady trying to keep her car well maintained could well fall for this at one of the chains.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Another horror story -

 

[The Baron]

I have just bought a car and it took me weeks to find a small car that does not run a belt in oil.
I would not buy any of the Fiesta, Corsa, Peugeot or Citroen small cars as you do not have any guarantees with the history some cars have full history but still suffered from belt failure.
It's a minefield out there for small to medium cars.
If you buy one second hand(even 6 months old ex rentals)factor in a belt change when you buy it and oil changes and more belt changes than expected say every 3 years depending on mileage.
The small Ford Ecotech engine have a even worse record and I believe they have started changing the new ones to Chain driven which is a major cost but that is only what I have read so do not take it as gospel.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I got rid of my Peugeot 2008 17 plate and got a 1L Nissan Juke turbo, chain driven Renault engine

 

[Nicks90]

I'm on the fence with these. I can see the point and understand the design decision - with the appropriate belt material and oil spec they will last just as long as any other belt. But, BIG BUT, manufacturers use multiple suppliers, all trying to make a margin, and oil used at service time (including dealers) trying to cut costs.
Means it's just not a sustainable design without much better quality control.

Case in point is Volvo gearboxes. The oil for the auto transmission contains unobtanium or something akin to ground up virgin dust that costs more than the GDP of a small country, replace it with something cheaper (but on the face of it the same oil spec) and you'll be looking at a new auto box in 10,000 miles if not sooner.
The people that design these things aren't at fault, it's the supply chain (both pre manufacture and post support) that are at fault.

Personally I would have one of I needed a small car, but I would have the belt changed with a genuine ford item and only use genuine ford oil. Even then I would probably change it sooner than recommended and also clean the sump and strainer at every services. But as I do ally own servicing it costs me nothing but my own time to ensure it's done right

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I have just bought a car and it took me weeks to find a small car that does not run a belt in oil.

I haven't bought a car with a cam belt in many years having had one snap this is a good guide to which manufacturers still use cam chains -

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/advice/owning-advice/timing-chain-or-cambelt/#

 

[The Baron]

Agree Nicks90 the design idea was good but they have found out that the belts perish even if the proper oil is used.
The thing I question is before it came to light which probably took 3 years plus how many of the cars did get oil changes that were not exactly the specific oil, I do know that in even main garages they have oil hooked up to large barrels of generic oils of the same grade but not the exact manufacturer that may have been used and may still be used maybe?
Then changing them with the manufacturers belt is in some cases not the answer in fact some knowledgeable mechanics recommend different makes to the ones supplied by main manufacturers as they are not of the best grade for the job, bear in mind the manufacturers have created this issue and some of the belts in fact most are failing on the original belts supplied by manufacturers.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Personally I would have one of I needed a small car, but I would have the belt changed with a genuine ford item and only use genuine ford oil. Even then I would probably change it sooner than recommended and also clean the sump and strainer at every services. But as I do ally own servicing it costs me nothing but my own time to ensure it's done right

The problem comes when these cars are out of warranty, 8+ years old with a lot of miles on the clock and the owners haven't a clue there is a belt inside the engine, they are going to have to trust the back street garage to fist replace the belt inside the engine and that they are going to use original parts not some pattern part from a motor parts supplier and then that they use the right oil when you go for your annual oil change, way too many opportunities for costs to be cut and when the engine goes bang no comeback.

 

[LeeH]

I nearly bought a Honda Civic Type R, 3 years old low mileage. Doing my research I found out it had a cambelt in oil, and that the cost of replacement was nearly £2k. Replacement period was 6 years (3 more years) just the time I would have changed the car, so walked away.

Which version was this? Mine was a chain K20 engine.

 

[Clint]

Chap in work just had his Honda go bang with this problem,a month out of warranty. After a few months arguing about it Honda have done engine rebuild and it's now fixed. Needless to say he's selling it.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I feel sorry for people in the future buying these cars second hand then within a short period they are left with a scrap car as the price of replacing the engine is more than the car is worth, this may turn into the next version of PPI scandal and lawyers will be all over it.

 

[Clint]

He originally had an email recalling it for belt replacement but when he called to get it booked in they said the email was a mistake. So effectively they acknowledged the defect then chose to ignore it.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

He originally had an email recalling it for belt replacement but when he called to get it booked in they said the email was a mistake. So effectively they acknowledged the defect then chose to ignore it.

I would be asking the advice of a solicitor with that email and the evidence there is out there now he would have a cast iron case.

 

[Clint]

They rebuilt the engine free of charge. He's now selling/sold it as got no confidence in it any more. He asked Honda if they wanted it. They didn't.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It's time this was brought to the people's attention the manufacturers know its a problem but you can bet they won't recall the cars that have these belts.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Ford 1.0 EcoBoost

 

[Chippy_Tea]

 

[Donegal john]

My daughters had 3 different small cars
2013 1.6 puegot 208
2014 1.6 DS 3
2014 1.3 cdti corsa
All similar miles below the replacement intervals (cords chain driven)
In the same 3 month period the chain “fell off” the corsa - no damage new chain and tensioners
The DS3 chain shed 3 teeth resulting in catastrophic engine failure
And the pug went straight into the garage for a belt replacement
Same engine in the pug and DS3
Are any cars built to last these days ?