Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)

[strange-steve]

Thanks got the report and attached it.

Is it the 'mean value' i should be reading ? So chloride 26 and sulphate 33.1 ?

Yep

 

[BrucetheFish]

Ok great.

Are they about normal levels for chloride and sulphate ?

I was thinking that i just need to add some calcium chloride to improve the ratio over sulphate.

 

[strange-steve]

Ok great.

Are they about normal levels for chloride and sulphate ?

I was thinking that i just need to add some calcium chloride to improve the ratio over sulphate.

They're rather low but that's not a problem because it's easy to increase them. Are you using CRS to reduce the alkalinity?

 

[BrucetheFish]

Yes using CRS.

So i'll just add Gypsum and Calcium Chloride at the rates in your guide to get the PPM i want for Chloride & Sulphate levels.

 

[strange-steve]

Yes using CRS.

So i'll just add Gypsum and Calcium Chloride at the rates in your guide to get the PPM i want for Chloride & Sulphate levels.

Well the use of CRS complicates the calculation a little because it actually adds sulphate and chloride. So if for example you added enough CRS to reduce the alkalinity to 30ppm (about 0.96ml/l) this would add about 85ppm of sulphate and 62ppm of chloride, so take that into consideration when workout your additions.

Alternatively have a look at my simple water calculator which will work it out for you: Simple Water Calculator

 

[BrucetheFish]

Brilliant Calculator !

As you said for my target chloride and sulphate levels it shows the sulphate would be high enough already so just need to add some calcium chloride.

Really appreciate your help and knowledge, thanks.

 

[MickDundee]

I’m planning my next lot of brews. Now I will have access to cornies and closed transfers I’m going to do a NEIPA. I only every really make pale ales and lagers so have never bothered with water chemistry because I have soft water.

According to t’internet the Calcium in my tap water is 11.3. According to the OP should I have been bringing this up to 50-100 the whole time anyway, even for my pale ales? Anyway, for my NEIPA, because my calcium is so low, is it just a case of throwing in the maximum of 0.3g of calcium chloride per litre to my strike and sparge water and carry on my brew day as normal?

 

[strange-steve]

@MickDundee yes I would increase your calcium to at least 100ppm for all beers apart from lagers which can be a bit lower. Also that 0.3g/l max I mentioned in the OP is a very conservative figure (which I've been meaning to change) so don't be afraid to go a bit higher. In fact I'd probably recommend you add 0.4g/l to your NEIPA.

 

[MickDundee]

@MickDundee yes I would increase your calcium to at least 100ppm for all beers apart from lagers which can be a bit lower. Also that 0.3g/l max I mentioned in the OP is a very conservative figure (which I've been meaning to change) so don't be afraid to go a bit higher. In fact I'd probably recommend you add 0.4g/l to your NEIPA.

That’s super, thanks Steve. I’ll pop some gypsum and calcium chloride into my basket when I order my ingredients. I’ve just been told my in laws are getting me a GEB voucher for my birthday (SWMBO asked if an Amazon voucher is ok, and when I hesitated she asked me to send her a link to a brewing gift voucher) so will probably hold off doing any ordering for a week and a half until my birthday so I can order ingredients and equipment together.

 

[pottsworth]

Thanks again for this, keeps being useful every time I come back to it!

How would you tie the addition of CRS back to the rest of a water profile?

Unfortunately brewfather doesn't have CRS as an addition, so should I just use a salifert test and adjust alkalinity, then take the rest of the water additions relative to the measured profile I have, or should I set bicarbonate (HCO3-) to either 0, which then also reduces alkalinity to 0, or another number so that residual alkalinity is equal to zero, but then leaves an imbalance between cations and anions?

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[strange-steve]

Thanks again for this, keeps being useful every time I come back to it!

How would you tie the addition of CRS back to the rest of a water profile?

Unfortunately brewfather doesn't have CRS as an addition, so should I just use a salifert test and adjust alkalinity, then take the rest of the water additions relative to the measured profile I have, or should I set bicarbonate (HCO3-) to either 0, which then also reduces alkalinity to 0, or another number so that residual alkalinity is equal to zero, but then leaves an imbalance between cations and anions?

Thanks in advance for any help.

If I understand your question I think you're asking what water profile you would enter to account for the changes caused by the CRS? If so then then there are a few changes you'd make.

First of all you would enter the post-adjustment alkalinity, so if you reduced your alkalinity from say 100ppm to 25ppm then obviously you would enter an alkalinity of 25ppm. If the software is asking for bicarbonate (rather than CaCO3 that is) then you can convert by multiplying by 1.22 (so 25ppm as CaCO3 would become 31ppm bicarbonate).

Next you would adjust the sulphate and chloride to account for the increase from the CRS, 1ml/L adds about 88ppm sulphate and 64ppm chloride.

Everything else, such as calcium, sdoium, magnesium, etc will stay the same.

 

[pottsworth]

If I understand your question I think you're asking what water profile you would enter to account for the changes caused by the CRS? If so then then there are a few changes you'd make.

First of all you would enter the post-adjustment alkalinity, so if you reduced your alkalinity from say 100ppm to 25ppm then obviously you would enter an alkalinity of 25ppm. If the software is asking for bicarbonate (rather than CaCO3 that is) then you can convert by multiplying by 1.22 (so 25ppm as CaCO3 would become 31ppm bicarbonate).

Next you would adjust the sulphate and chloride to account for the increase from the CRS, 1ml/L adds about 88ppm sulphate and 64ppm chloride.

Everything else, such as calcium, sdoium, magnesium, etc will stay the same.

Yes, you understood the question right, and thanks very much for the answer.

 

[DCBC]

Hey all, I feel that I am now in the intermediate range when it comes to understanding water chemistry and its effect on fermentation and the finished beer. This is in large part due to this extremely heplful thread, so thanks!

There is one glaring hole in my understanding though that I just can't reconcile. It would be great to get some advice please if possible...

I use Brunwater and I have inputted the various values, initially from a Thames Water report and later from a Murphy's test I paid for. Reassuringly the values were very similar.

There's one thing I just don't understand though. I gather from Martin Brungard that hardness as CaCo3 determines the amount of magnesium in the water as it's a fixed rate. If I enter the hardness as CaCo3 (223 ppm) into the converter around halfway down the "Water report input" page it tells me that my total magnesium ppm is 54.2. However I already know (or I think I do!) that the Mg is only 2.9ppm as both water reports have told me this.

So what's the reason for this massive discrepancy? I believe the low figure to be correct because my anion/cation balance is in the green range, so what am I missing? Is the magnesium calculation something different when it's part of the CaCo3 conversation? If my water report didn't have a value for Mg and I were using the Brunwater conversion then I would have entered 54.2ppm and my ion balance would be way off.

Thanks in advance

 

[strange-steve]

Hey all, I feel that I am now in the intermediate range when it comes to understanding water chemistry and its effect on fermentation and the finished beer. This is in large part due to this extremely heplful thread, so thanks!

There is one glaring hole in my understanding though that I just can't reconcile. It would be great to get some advice please if possible...

I use Brunwater and I have inputted the various values, initially from a Thames Water report and later from a Murphy's test I paid for. Reassuringly the values were very similar.

There's one thing I just don't understand though. I gather from Martin Brungard that hardness as CaCo3 determines the amount of magnesium in the water as it's a fixed rate. If I enter the hardness as CaCo3 (223 ppm) into the converter around halfway down the "Water report input" page it tells me that my total magnesium ppm is 54.2. However I already know (or I think I do!) that the Mg is only 2.9ppm as both water reports have told me this.

So what's the reason for this massive discrepancy? I believe the low figure to be correct because my anion/cation balance is in the green range, so what am I missing? Is the magnesium calculation something different when it's part of the CaCo3 conversation? If my water report didn't have a value for Mg and I were using the Brunwater conversion then I would have entered 54.2ppm and my ion balance would be way off.

Thanks in advance

Hardness can be a little confusing but the first thing to note is that hardness is a measure of both magnesium and calcium, which is why you're getting the discrepancy. That box in the converter will convert from magnesium as CaCO3 to magnesium ppm, which is not the same as converting from hardness as CaCO3 to magnesium ppm. If you put a value or 223 in there then the calculator is assuming that 223ppm of hardness is from magnesium, which isn't the case because some (most) of that 223ppm is from calcium.

The thing is you can't tell what proportion is calcium and what is magnesium just from a hardness value. In order to convert between hardness, calcium, and magnesium you need to know 2 of the variables which is why there is no converter for that, and it means that hardness often isn't a terribly useful value for us.

In your case however you have a magnesium value which is great, so you don't need that converter. And because you also have the hardness as CaCO3 you can then work out the calcium concentration (although if you have a Murphy's report you probably know that already):
Calcium = (hardness as CaCO3 - (4.1 * magnesium)) / 2.5
= (223 - 11.9) / 2.5
= 211.1 / 2.5
= 84.4 ppm

 

[DCBC]

Hardness can be a little confusing but the first thing to note is that hardness is a measure of both magnesium and calcium, which is why you're getting the discrepancy. That box in the converter will convert from magnesium as CaCO3 to magnesium ppm, which is not the same as converting from hardness as CaCO3 to magnesium ppm. If you put a value or 223 in there then the calculator is assuming that 223ppm of hardness is from magnesium, which isn't the case because some (most) of that 223ppm is from calcium.

The thing is you can't tell what proportion is calcium and what is magnesium just from a hardness value. In order to convert between hardness, calcium, and magnesium you need to know 2 of the variables which is why there is no converter for that, and it means that hardness often isn't a terribly useful value for us.

In your case however you have a magnesium value which is great, so you don't need that converter. And because you also have the hardness as CaCO3 you can then work out the calcium concentration (although if you have a Murphy's report you probably know that already):
Calcium = (hardness as CaCO3 - (4.1 * magnesium)) / 2.5
= (223 - 11.9) / 2.5
= 211.1 / 2.5
= 84.4 ppm

Hi Steve,

That's brilliant, thank you. It's the final missing bit of the jigsaw for me. Your calculation for calcium didn't seem quite right and then I noticed that my hardness as CaCO3 is 287 not 223 - 223 was the Alkalinity as CaCO3. 287/223 x 84.4 = ..... 108.6 which is near enough exactly my actual Ca value :)

Thanks again!

 

[Argentum]

MW : CaCO3 = 100.0869
MW : Ca++ ion = 40.078
MW Mg++ ion = 24.305

100.0869/40.078 = 2.49730
100.0869/24.305 = 4.11796

Total Hardness (as CaCO3) = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)

 

[AMyd666]

Hi All. Reading through this, I'm still stumped as to what do with my water data, as some info like alkalinity and calcium isn't present in the report. Can someone please advise? I like brewing all sorts of beer especially darker beers, but also IPA and would like to try Belgian tripel or dubbel. I bought some gypsum thinking that would sort out an acidic bite from my Stout, but haven't tried it in a brew yet. I've since bought some alkalinity and ph strips too.

 

[strange-steve]

Hi All. Reading through this, I'm still stumped as to what do with my water data, as some info like alkalinity and calcium isn't present in the report. Can someone please advise? I like brewing all sorts of beer especially darker beers, but also IPA and would like to try Belgian tripel or dubbel. I bought some gypsum thinking that would sort out an acidic bite from my Stout, but haven't tried it in a brew yet. I've since bought some alkalinity and ph strips too.

View attachment 30357

Yeah that report isn't terribly useful I'm afraid. First things you need to do before making any adjustments is to find out the alkalinity and calcium. Get yourself a couple of test kits like these then you'll know your baseline:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006NWO0J6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_2NvkFb8DDSC5Yhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PGOYVE6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_tOvkFbPSM2WKF

 

[AMyd666]

Yeah that report isn't terribly useful I'm afraid. First things you need to do before making any adjustments is to find out the alkalinity and calcium. Get yourself a couple of test kits like these then you'll know your baseline:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006NWO0J6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_2NvkFb8DDSC5Yhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PGOYVE6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_tOvkFbPSM2WKF

Thanks Steve. I've emailed the water board for those details too. I'll keep reading through this post to get a better understanding

 

[adefm]

Pretty pleased with myself bought the two kits for alkalinity and calcium testing and tested my tap water here in Medway this evening.
Alkalinity tested as high at 275ppm. My southern water, water report for my area says hardness is 260.
Calcium tested at 145ppm. Cannot find this on the water report, maybe I don't know what to look for
From the water report the total chlorine varies between 0.43 and 0.85 depending on what source.

My conclusions: I am have only done 3 AG BIAB brews using very simple SMASH like brews using maris otter and 1-3 traditional english hops and my conclusion is for my next brew using maris otter and 1-3 traditional english hops (some combination of fuggles, east kent goldings and challenger)
I will add a quarter campden tablet pre-heat to both the mash and sparge water:
I have bought home some lactic acid and gypsum, today from the local brewery I am getting experience at.
Add 0.3 ml of the lactic acid per litre that I puts in the pre-heated mash and sparge water and. I have a 1.25ml measuring spoon, borrowed from the kitchen. I assume a leveled measuring spoonful of lactic acid is 1.25ml. I have never used measuring spoons before.
For the calcium I will not add any gypsum.

Any reply, comment, help would be appreciated to a newbie