Beginners Guide to Water Treatment (plus links to more advanced water treatment in post #1)

[Argentum]

He was saying the acid isn’t what really gives you the correct PH, it the combination of acid, salts and malt in the mash.

True for mash pH. False (not applicable) for sparge water pH.

And then you will need a tool to determine mash pH so you will know how much acid plus minerals to add up front to your mash water to roughly hit your mash pH target before you even commence the mash process.

 

[Lee Brown]

Tbank you for tbis!

May total hardness is meant to be 281.

 

[Lee Brown]

True for mash pH. False (not applicable) for sparge water pH.

And then you will need a tool to determine mash pH so you will know how much acid plus minerals to add up front to your mash water to roughly hit your mash pH target before you even commence the mash process.

what if you treat the whole lot together before decanting to sparge vessel for later?

 

[Argentum]

If you are brewing a Pilsner, you may wind up sparging with pH 4 water if you treat your sparge water identically to your mash water. Most advice calls for sparging with water in the neighborhood of 5.4-5.5 pH.

One way or another you will still need a "valid" means to know how to treat your water. I'm seriously questioning the validity of Murphy's 75% phosphoric acid advice. You can determine if Murphy's is right by adding their methods calculated amount of 75% phos acid to 10L of your water, and separately adding 5.4 mL of 75% phos acid to 10L of your water, and seeing which one gets you closer to hitting pH 5.4-5.5 for your water.

 

[Argentum]

Minerals such as gypsum and CaCl2.2H2O do not change the pH of water and/or alter its alkalinity, and this is quite easy to verify for yourself. They do however impact mash pH downwardly, and they accomplish this by reacting with phosphates within the grist to liberate H+ ions, which immediately combine with water to form H3O+ ions.

 

[Lee Brown]

I think I’m going to go softly softly with this then. I will start with less PA and work up, as I test.

My mash water will be 13.66l
Sparge 17.85l

I may as well get mash water up to room temp and add 5.9mls of PA (half of suggested volume) and see what that does.

I will go for 6.9g of gypsum and 2.7g CaCl.

I can always add more to sparge water.

 

[Argentum]

Base malts are basic with respect to target mash pH, and most other malts are acidic with respect to target mash pH, with crystal and deep roasted malts being highly acidic. If your grist predominates in base malt, and contains little of darker or crystal malts, it will thereby need more acid than will your sparge water. That's why I mentioned above that for a Pilsner if you acidified your sparge water the same as for your mash water, your sparge water would end up being way over-acidified.

 

[user 18729]

Give Brewnwater a go. It takes into account your grain bill and water and does all these calculations for you. It’s a really well made spreadsheet.

 

[strange-steve]

I’m looking at treating my water to see how it benefits my brewing. I’ve asked for a water report from Yorkshire Water but they haven’t been very responsive as of yet. Does anyone know where I can get a water analysis done so I can have a full breakdown of the water? If I get a full report, I can enter the water profile in Beersmith and at least then I can tailor my additions to the beer style

Yes I recommend Neil from Phoenix Analytical, known on other forums as Wallybrew. Have a look here.

 

[strange-steve]

Are there any such taste threshold limitations with either phosphoric acid or CRS?

(I was reading about CRS the other day, in hindsight now it's obvious it would also add both sulphate and chloride which I hadn't realised previously - could be helpful at times, could be a hindrance but noteworthy nevertheless)

Phosphoric acid is considered mostly flavour neutral in beer because it adds phosphate which is added in much greater quantity by the malt. CRS can also be used in greater quantities, as long as the total sulphate/chloride are acceptable for your purposes.

The problem with lactic acid is that is adds lactate, which is a common off-flavour due to bacterial contamination, so when it's noticable it's generally considered unpleasant.

 

[strange-steve]

Hi All,

I've used the calculator to try and work out my water profile for a NEIPA. I was thinking of using solely Tesco Ashbeck water. Does this profile look right? Unfortunately I only have gypsum and calcium chloride (no epsom salts). This is for 20l of mash water

TIA
CRS: 0 millilitres Carbonate Reducing Solution - add this to the total water volume!

Gypsum added to mash: 10.3 grams Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate) (Ca SO4 2H2O)
Chalk added to mash: 0 grams Chalk (Calcium Carbonate) (Ca CO3)

Gypsum added to boiler: 0 grams Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate) (Ca SO4 2H2O)
Table Salt added to boiler: 1.07 grams Table Salt (Na Cl)
Epsom Salts added to boiler: 3.55 grams Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate) (Mg SO4 7H2O)
Calcium Chloride added to boiler: 0.01 grams Calcium Chloride (Dihydrate) (Ca Cl2 2H2O)

Nope this looks way off for a NEIPA. It might be OK for a West Coast IPA but a NEIPA should be chloride forward. For Ashbeck I would go for something like this:
0.3g/l calcium chloride
0.06g/l gypsum

 

[Lee Brown]

An update...

I did my brew day yesterday. My aim was to brew a session IPA at 3.8%.

I downloaded John Palmer’s app on water changes. As a result I baulked at committing to the high acid doses.

I went for 7.5mls in the mash(13.66l) and 9mls in the sparge (17.89l). This with 15g gypsum and 4 of Calcium Chloride flakes spread over both the mash and sparge water. I also added one Campden tab over all 31.55l.

The mash was showing 5.2ph after about 40 mins into mash. The sparge water seemed under (maybe 4.6ph), but I’m guessing with the PH sticks.

My first first brew using water profile changes is a bit of gamble. I have no clue if I hit the correct alkalinity. I have today bought a Salifert alkalinity kit. Not sure if I can test the water whilst it is fermenting, though.

I am hoping, no matter if it hits all my targets, it’ll be better than straight up tap water. It did smell a tad acidy at the start...maybe because I’ve never used Phosphoric acid before. But the final chilled wort tasted great.

Anyhow, I also bought John Palmer’s How To Brew online today. Thanks for all your inputs for my first dabble into this complicated world of water chemistry.

I hope I can only get better at it from now on.

 

[Argentum]

367/50 = 7.34 mEq/L of alkalinity

7.34 mEq/L x 17.89L = 131.3 mEq of alkalinity in your sparge water

131.3 mEq/12.1 mEq/mL = 10.85 mL of 75% Phosphoric Acid to bring the sparge water to 4.3 pH

10.85 mL x 0.9 = 9.8 mL to bring the sparge water to pH 5.4

By my ciphering your 9.0 mL acid addition brought your sparge water to a perfectly acceptable 5.6 pH

That your pH sticks measured 4.6 pH for the sparge water is a reflection of such sticks inaccuracy.

 

[Lee Brown]

Thanks, Argentum. That’s brilliant.

Wished we could send beer over the internet like Wonka Vision! You could give it the thumbs up or down when it’s ready.

 

[Lee Brown]

How do I work this to marry up PH value and hit alkalinity for a particular style? Say I still wanted similar PHs, but my beer style was a stout?

 

[Argentum]

I could tell you how I would do it, but I must admit up front to bias, and my answer might also be misconstrued as unpermitted promotional advertising on this forum (despite no cost being involved in it). Therefore I must seek the approval of @Chippy_Tea to either tell you publicly or via a PM. I hope the @ sign works to hail a moderator on this site.

 

[Lee Brown]

@Argentum so based on my report, what would you say the 75% PA, Gypsum and CaCl additions should be to get 5.2ph and a RA of say 20?

Did I get close with my doses?

For comparison, what would you recommend for the opposite end of the scale a Guinness type stout? I’m thinking 2mls mash, 3mls sparge. 2.28 CaCl and 4.2 NaCl(salt).

my alkalinity is 367 (as caco3). Mag 3.2/Calcium 107.17/Sulphate 13.52/Chloride 24.32

 

[user 18729]

@Argentum so based on my report, what would you say the 75% PA, Gypsum and CaCl additions should be to get 5.2ph and a RA of say 20?

Did I get close with my doses?

For comparison, what would you recommend for the opposite end of the scale a Guinness type stout? I’m thinking 2mls mash, 3mls sparge. 2.28 CaCl and 4.2 NaCl(salt).

my alkalinity is 367 (as caco3). Mag 3.2/Calcium 107.17/Sulphate 13.52/Chloride 24.32

You need to take into account the grist before treating your water. Unless you’re very very good at maths you should use a calculator. You cannot simply add a set amount of salts/acid for a given style without factoring in the grain and quantity of liquor. Don’t make hard work for yourself

 

[Lee Brown]

I’ve tried this with half a dozen downloaded excel spreadsheets and they all give me different results, doses and additions

Even using Bru’n Water it gives me strange readings and says my report is ‘unbalanced’. I need someone to who knows that they’re doing to correct what I’m inputting.

 

[Argentum]

I'm still waiting for @Chippy_Tea, but my solution is literally staring you in the face.

That said, your waters analyticals are impossible as stated, since your cation mEq/L and anion mEq/L balance is way off.

Do you know your waters total hardness in ppm as CaCo3?

Magnesium and calcium ions must conform to (constants rounded):
Total Hardness in ppm as CaCO3 = (2.5 x Ca ppm) + (4.12 x Mg ppm)