Are kit instructions wrong?

[morethanworts]

This puzzles me.

Why do basic kit instructions often tell you to empty the contents of the can(s) into the fermenter, pour over a couple of kettles of water, and then [immediately] top up with cold water? I thought that when cold water mixes with wort that is above something like 26C, it will oxidate, leading to off tastes in the beer.

Maybe I'm missing something...!

 

[ScottM]

Must admit I've not had any issues regarding this. Most extract brewing requires the same process.

 

[pittsy]

Hi , at that stage of the brewing mixing oxygen into the wort is good for the yeast , however your right kit instruction are mostly miss leading or wrong . Never ferment no higher than 24c unless using something like a belgian yeast which want funky flavours from the yeast which are produced at high temp , always leave brew at least 10 days minimum in fv before bottling ,even if brew has fermented yeast requires time to clean up off flavours in beer . Imo cane sugar , brewing sugar and enhancer shouldn't be used in a brew , what's wrong with lme and dme , it's what the kit is made from.

 

[morethanworts]

I didn't think you were supposed to introduce oxygen into the brew at any temperature between the end of boiling (whether you are actually boiling in a vessel or presumably just pouring over kettles of water) and about 26C ie not quite at that stage. Aeration after it's been cooled and topped up, yes, but oxidation when warm, I read not.

 

[Dr Mike]

I think you're referring to 'Hot Side Aeration'.

I think it's fair to say that there is not really a consensus that this really matters or not! For kit brewing I would suspect not.

 

[joe1002]

I think HSA really relates to all grain brewing and even then, as Dr Mike says there is no consensus whether it matters or not.

You really need to get as much oxygen as you can into your wort before pitching the yeast. When I brewed kits I used to pour the cold water from a height to achieve this :thumb:

 

[alawlor66430]

I put my lid on and my thumb over the grommet and pick it up and shake like mad for 5 mins, a really good work out for the arms to lol, not dropped it or thrown it across the kitchen yet thank god (imagine that).

 

[morethanworts]

I think HSA really relates to all grain brewing and even then, as Dr Mike says there is no consensus whether it matters or not.

You really need to get as much oxygen as you can into your wort before pitching the yeast. When I brewed kits I used to pour the cold water from a height to achieve this :thumb:

I saw it suggesteed somewhere that aeration is over rated in homebewing, at least for dried yeasts. The Maurivin 497 I've just used says 'low' oxygen requirements, though what that means practically, I have no idea!

 

[rpt]

Never ferment no higher than 24c ...

I think you mean never ferment higher than 24C!

As for hot side aeration, is 26C that hot? I thought it was only an issue with near boiling wort.

 

[calumscott]

I think you're referring to 'Hot Side Aeration'.

I think it's fair to say that there is not really a consensus that this really matters or not! For kit brewing I would suspect not.

+1

In all my kit brewing year I did exactly this: tins into FV, rinsed out residue in near boiling water, added to FV and all mixed properly, cold added from a height to 23l, pitch yeast.

The temperatures work out near perfectly so that you are ready to pitch straight away and I produced some frankly brilliant beer.

Roll with it, things DO change when you inevitably come over to the darkside...

 

[jonnymorris]

You shouldn't pitch your yeast above 26degC but I've never heard of not adding the cold water until its at 26degC. As Calum says above I used to find that hot wort topped up with cold water resulted in a temp perfect for pitching.

Bottom line, don't worry about it.

 

[morethanworts]

I had mixed results with kits 10 years ago or so (and have been on an extended break since) so I'm keen to eliminate any potential 'banana skin'.

Here's one page of reference for what I've seen: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-9-3.html

I don't get why it would matter with 'proper' extract brewing and all grain, but not with a kit, if that's what some people are suggesting.

:hmm:

 

[calumscott]

I don't get why it would matter with 'proper' extract brewing and all grain, but not with a kit, if that's what some people are suggesting.

:hmm:

Firstly there is a lot of debate about whether it really is a concern or not. Indeed (and I say this with no in depth knowledge of the chemistry just the application of a bit of simple logic...) if we accept that HSA will cause oxygen to bond to "stuff", to be released as free oxygen later then what is cold-side aeration going to do when we actively force oxygen into the wort? Exactly the same. If something in the wort is available for oxidation when hot, it'll still be available for oxidation when cooler. There are no new catalysts magically appearing when hot and disappearing when cold the only factor is that rate of reaction will be higher when hot.

The mechanism for what Palmer suggests must be that O2 dissolves in hot wort then reacts with compounds in the wort. Solution of gasses in liquids is more difficult when hot is it not??

In kit brewing the aeration is usually created with the addition of the cold water - this is cooling the wort at the same time. By the time you have all the water and air in there you are down to 20 something degrees which Palmer deems pretty safe anyway - i.e. you are dissolving oxygen as it cools but cooling quickly so reducing the reaction rate as you go.

If we accept that dissolved oxygen + a high reaction rate is the problem then HSA when no-chill cubing AG or Extract wort *could* be a problem - the hot wort/oxygen mix remains hot for a long time and there are no growth phase yeasts to "mop up" any oxygen released from the previously oxidised compounds (but that makes no sense to me either, oxidation tends to be a pretty "one-way" thing)...

...I am careful with mine as it is easy for me to be so. I have a very long pipe :shock: which reaches right to the bottom of my collecting FV. I aerate later with a cordless drill and paddle mixer.

So don't go complicating things, there are many many more effective ways to get better beer from kits. :thumb:

 

[morethanworts]

I don't get why it would matter with 'proper' extract brewing and all grain, but not with a kit, if that's what some people are suggesting.

:hmm:

Firstly there is a lot of debate about whether it really is a concern or not. Indeed (and I say this with no in depth knowledge of the chemistry just the application of a bit of simple logic...) if we accept that HSA will cause oxygen to bond to "stuff", to be released as free oxygen later then what is cold-side aeration going to do when we actively force oxygen into the wort? Exactly the same. If something in the wort is available for oxidation when hot, it'll still be available for oxidation when cooler. There are no new catalysts magically appearing when hot and disappearing when cold the only factor is that rate of reaction will be higher when hot.

The mechanism for what Palmer suggests must be that O2 dissolves in hot wort then reacts with compounds in the wort. Solution of gasses in liquids is more difficult when hot is it not??

In kit brewing the aeration is usually created with the addition of the cold water - this is cooling the wort at the same time. By the time you have all the water and air in there you are down to 20 something degrees which Palmer deems pretty safe anyway - i.e. you are dissolving oxygen as it cools but cooling quickly so reducing the reaction rate as you go.

If we accept that dissolved oxygen + a high reaction rate is the problem then HSA when no-chill cubing AG or Extract wort *could* be a problem - the hot wort/oxygen mix remains hot for a long time and there are no growth phase yeasts to "mop up" any oxygen released from the previously oxidised compounds (but that makes no sense to me either, oxidation tends to be a pretty "one-way" thing)...

...I am careful with mine as it is easy for me to be so. I have a very long pipe :shock: which reaches right to the bottom of my collecting FV. I aerate later with a cordless drill and paddle mixer.

So don't go complicating things, there are many many more effective ways to get better beer from kits. :thumb:

That's a really useful reply, many thanks. You essentially disagree with Palmer then, or at least think the issue is not as important as he perhaps suggests. That's good to know.

If I could get the simple kit method reliable, then I don't see the point in no-chilling as an option, other than the ability to pitch at a later date, seeing that some think it doesn't lead to the clearest beer. [NB I have not tried it!] Unless I'm going to boil and chill quickly, syphoning above the cold throw, then I guess I will be just as well pouring the extract in the FV, pouring in a couple of kettles, boiling any hops (and even mashing any grains?) separately and adding the water from those in too, topping up with cold and pitching.

I'll be fermenting under an airlock from now on: I think I was poorly advised years ago: "The yeast need the air supply to keep working, so leave the lid loose..." maybe that was a bigger factor than any of this (?). I'm pretty sure my sanitisation and temperature control were OK.

 

[calumscott]

That's a really useful reply, many thanks. You essentially disagree with Palmer then, or at least think the issue is not as important as he perhaps suggests. That's good to know.

Palmer seems to know his stuff. I've used that guide for info in the past and on the whole found it to be well written and sensible. I'm just not convinced about the HSA bit.

If I could get the simple kit method reliable, then I don't see the point in no-chilling as an option, other than the ability to pitch at a later date, seeing that some think it doesn't lead to the clearest beer. [NB I have not tried it!] Unless I'm going to boil and chill quickly, syphoning above the cold throw, then I guess I will be just as well pouring the extract in the FV, pouring in a couple of kettles, boiling any hops (and even mashing any grains?) separately and adding the water from those in too, topping up with cold and pitching.

Again, another point of contention... I don't buy the chill quickly for better cold break line. Rate of cooling has no bearing (well, I haven't found that convinces me that it does, no experimental results, no studies) on the aggregation of non-microbial particles. All I've found is something that suggests that studies have been carried out proving the link between temperature and aggregation, no mention is made of rate of cooling as being important. It is important for other reasons though (infection risks, potential evaporation of the more volatile flavour and aroma compounds...).

I'll be fermenting under an airlock from now on: I think I was poorly advised years ago: "The yeast need the air supply to keep working, so leave the lid loose..." maybe that was a bigger factor than any of this (?). I'm pretty sure my sanitisation and temperature control were OK.

You were indeed! Oxygenate to start with then seal it up. The basic concept being that the oxygen present fuels a growth and reproduction phase in the yeast culture to give the number of cells for a good fermentation, after that the environment should stay anaerobic which prevents respiration and so drives fermentation as the yeast try to extract energy from the sugars without oxygen. :thumb:

 

[joe1002]

I'll be fermenting under an airlock from now on: I think I was poorly advised years ago: "The yeast need the air supply to keep working, so leave the lid loose..." maybe that was a bigger factor than any of this (?). I'm pretty sure my sanitisation and temperature control were OK.

Yeast use the oxygen in your wort to grow, they dont need any outside oxygen. Some ferment with an airlock, others (myself included) don't. You can rest the lid on the top of the FV or clip it down, leaving a small part unclipped. The purpose of the lid is to stop any nasties getting into your brew, but the CO2 produced by the fermentation process will need to escape. After the initial flurry of activity in the first 3-4 days you will be able to clip the lid down completely. But if you want to use an airlock then go ahead, it really comes down to whatever works for you :thumb:

 

[Kinleycat]

They arent wrong but they are selling their product in a certain way "beer in three week" sounds better than "beer in a month and a half" and for the companies that is a good marketing aspect of the product that they can exploit.
The question any brewer needs to ask them selves is do i want to drink my beer in three weeks or do i want to drink better beer just not as quick?
I suppose its similar to another home brewing (kit) analagy - "i can brew beer for 25p a pint" which of course you can, but if you "spend 50p a pint you can brew better beer" and so on and so forth. The question for the keen amature home brewer now is do i want to drink good beer or do i want to drink great beer?
Needless to say the expedentials go on and on and on but IMO it is down to the individual and if you are happy drinking three week old 25p a pint beer thats great and the instructions and company claims are bang on accurate.
I suspect most contributers to here would not fall into that catagory - but as a "in" into the hobby its also a good tool and helps grow those enjoying fantastic home brewed beer "quickly" and "cheaply".
Thats how i see it anyway.
KC :

 

[calumscott]

Lots of really good stuff.

Right on the money. :thumb:

 

[ScottM]

Is the O2 mixed into the wort at the beginning not combined with carbon via the yeast to create the CO2? I always thought that was the case rather than just to help the yeast grow. The yeast grows via consuming sugar & O2 and the byproducts are alcohol and CO2?

Or is that what we're saying... without actually saying it? lol.

 

[calumscott]

Is the O2 mixed into the wort at the beginning not combined with carbon via the yeast to create the CO2? I always thought that was the case rather than just to help the yeast grow. The yeast grows via consuming sugar & O2 and the byproducts are alcohol and CO2?

Or is that what we're saying... without actually saying it? lol.

Nope...

The dissolved O2 at the start is combined with sugar (C6H12O6) to produce CO2 and H2O in the growth phase - simple respiration like what we do.

Only when that free oxygen runs out does alcohol get produced. At that point the sugar is (without going right into the detail) simply converted into CO2 and Ethanol (C2H6O)

:thumb: