American Wheat vs Witbier

[kimosabby]

Good morning all,

putting on an American Wheat beer on tomrrow; the base receipie I found is:
2.2kg Lager Malt
2.6kg Wheat Malt
269g Cara Pils
33g Citra (20 start of boil & 13g at end)
Safale 06 WB yeast
ABV target 5.3%
23l

I think I tasted something similar called Bio Polar from Beer 52 sometime ago; reasonably strong USA IPA mixed with a nice mouthfeel wheat beer.

Questions:
I was going to add a little more bittering (10g) and a bit more aroma (25g) - any recommendations for a second hop (and weights) was thinking of the usual Cascade/Centenial/Chinook

Also what's the thoughts of using fresh ground corriander (28g) and Dried ground curacao orange peel (10g) - will this move the taste alot more over to a Witbier as opposed to American Wheat. Ive not used these two before so not sure how the profile will change and whether this will clash. Are they two very different beers with the use of these two ingriedants?

Many thanks

Kimosabby

 

[chthon]

Actually, a real American Wheat beer should be fermented by an American yeast strain, not a European one.

The WB-06 is a diastatic yeast (Fermentis info), which means that it will chew up all sugars and create a dry wheat beer.

According to taste tests on the Dutch homebrew forum, the taste is clove and bananas, which make it more suited to a German wheat beer. And German wheat beer strains tend to dampen any hop bitterness and taste.

If you want your spices to have influence on the taste, then either take a real witbier strain (like MJ M21), or use a real American strain. I brewed an American wheat with MJ M44 yeast (US West Coast) and was satisfied with it. Spices will come out better.

 

[MrRook]

Actually, a real American Wheat beer should be fermented by an American yeast strain, not a European one.
bt

The first popular American wheat beer was brewed by Widmer using an alt yeast.

 

[NormanHurst]

I brewed an American Wheat a few months back and drinking through now. I used K97 which isn't American for the yeast but is pretty clean, and Columbus for the hops to about 25 IBU from memory. I've hummed and harred on how much I like it. Sometimes it fits the bill perfectly (like tonight), other days I am a bit meh on the style.

I think if I brewed it again, I might up the late hops or even do a modest dry hop. I might also use US 05 or similar.

 

[kimosabby]

Actually, a real American Wheat beer should be fermented by an American yeast strain, not a European one.

The WB-06 is a diastatic yeast (Fermentis info), which means that it will chew up all sugars and create a dry wheat beer.

According to taste tests on the Dutch homebrew forum, the taste is clove and bananas, which make it more suited to a German wheat beer. And German wheat beer strains tend to dampen any hop bitterness and taste.

If you want your spices to have influence on the taste, then either take a real witbier strain (like MJ M21), or use a real American strain. I brewed an American wheat with MJ M44 yeast (US West Coast) and was satisfied with it. Spices will come out better.

chthon
thanks for that; what your saying then is that if I want the spices to come out I need to use a West Coast yeast? If I use a yeast like then what are your thoughts on the recepie with the hops AND using orange/corriander - is there too much of a clash and I should stick to USA or German style? (appreciate everyones taste is different)

 

[kimosabby]

The first popular American wheat beer was brewed by Widmer using an alt yeast.

thanks for the reply; have you got the recipe for that

 

[kimosabby]

I brewed an American Wheat a few months back and drinking through now. I used K97 which isn't American for the yeast but is pretty clean, and Columbus for the hops to about 25 IBU from memory. I've hummed and harred on how much I like it. Sometimes it fits the bill perfectly (like tonight), other days I am a bit meh on the style.

I think if I brewed it again, I might up the late hops or even do a modest dry hop. I might also use US 05 or similar.

yes there are a few options to take on that; have you got the recipe for that

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The first popular American wheat beer was brewed by Widmer using an alt yeast.

Which is still very clean and US-like. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the main difference between a US wheat beer and a witbier is that the former uses a non-phenolic yeast and the latter uses a phenolic yeast, although they tend to use the weaker POF+ yeast rather than a full-on clove bomb.

So for an American use anything clean - US-05, Nottingham, K-97, even one of the "warm" lager yeasts like 34/70 or M54. For a wit then Lallemand Wit (assumed to be a rebrand of their old Munich) which is weakly POF+, and for a German hefe then the obvious option is Lallemand Munich Classic, which is more strongly POF+ and pretty close to being a dry version of the classic Weihenstephan W68 (~Wyeast 3068).

In general I'd avoid WB-06 - it's a bit of a weird yeast that despite its branding is nothing to do with hefe yeast, it's in the saison family most closely related to the Duvel yeasts. So I'd consider it for a Belgian Strong, but in particular I'd avoid using it with anything where you want hop flavour, it completely trashes hops.

And just generally, the whole point of this kind of style is the interplay between the grist and the spices - you don't need every beer you brew to taste of Citra. I imagine that the only US wheat that most Brits will have encountered is Coors' Blue Moon - you might want to check out this monster thread on HBT including a recipe from Wayne1, who says he was brewer at Coors' brewpub at the Denver baseball stadium when Blue Moon was first brewed. He suggests :

50:40:10 pale malt:malted wheat:flaked oats (ie ordinary porridge oats) to an OG of 10.50-ish and some rice hulls to help it lauter (which is a bit of a problem unless you take it really slow or are BIABing).

Only hops are some Mittelfruh at 90 minutes for 17.5 IBU.

He's very insistent on a ratio of 3:1 of ground coriander to dry, ground sweet orange peel, with eg a generous tsp of coriander going in at 10 minutes and a third of a tsp of orange at 5 minutes in 5 US gal/19 litres. Much of the rest of the thread is debating the best source of orange peel....

 

[NormanHurst]

yes there are a few options to take on that; have you got the recipe for that

11.5L Batch
70% Brewhouse Efficiency
1050 OG
1010 FV
5.2% ABV
26 IBU
---
1250g Wheat Malt
1250g Best Pale Ale Malt
150g Carapils
---
5g Columbus 16AA @ 60m
6g Columbus 16AA @ 10m
10g Columbus 16AA @ Flameout
---
Safale K97

 

[Covrich]

Never tried it but I have read a fair few people have said its best to stick to traditional hops on witbier rather than trying to throw us citrus hops in as you want the yeast grain and the spices /orange to blend well and US hops can confuse it a bit..

 

[kimosabby]

Never tried it but I have read a fair few people have said its best to stick to traditional hops on witbier rather than trying to throw us citrus hops in as you want the yeast grain and the spices /orange to blend well and US hops can confuse it a bit..

The drink which I had which set me off on this was from Beer 52 which had this description

Bipolar Bear is a White IPA, a mixture of traditional American IPA and spicy Belgian wheat beer (witbier). The orange citrus flavour and freshness of the coriander mixes with the bitterness of the IPA and the new wave Galaxy hop

 

[kimosabby]

Couldn’t get to the bottom of yeast

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I brew an American wheat beer regularly which I call Niagara wheat beer. Simple recipe
3000g Pilsner
3000g Wheat malt
250g Maple syrup
25g Amarillo 60m
25g Willamette 15m
CML Kristallweizen.

 

[kimosabby]

I brew an American wheat beer regularly which I call Niagara wheat beer. Simple recipe
3000g Pilsner
3000g Wheat malt
250g Maple syrup
25g Amarillo 60m
25g Willamette 15m
CML Kristallweizen.

you get much hit of the maple syrup? When does it go in?

Also any more info on that yeast

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Not a massive hit but it's there. Last 10 minutes of boil.

 

[kimosabby]

Which is still very clean and US-like. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the main difference between a US wheat beer and a witbier is that the former uses a non-phenolic yeast and the latter uses a phenolic yeast, although they tend to use the weaker POF+ yeast rather than a full-on clove bomb.

So for an American use anything clean - US-05, Nottingham, K-97, even one of the "warm" lager yeasts like 34/70 or M54. For a wit then Lallemand Wit (assumed to be a rebrand of their old Munich) which is weakly POF+, and for a German hefe then the obvious option is Lallemand Munich Classic, which is more strongly POF+ and pretty close to being a dry version of the classic Weihenstephan W68 (~Wyeast 3068).

In general I'd avoid WB-06 - it's a bit of a weird yeast that despite its branding is nothing to do with hefe yeast, it's in the saison family most closely related to the Duvel yeasts. So I'd consider it for a Belgian Strong, but in particular I'd avoid using it with anything where you want hop flavour, it completely trashes hops.

And just generally, the whole point of this kind of style is the interplay between the grist and the spices - you don't need every beer you brew to taste of Citra. I imagine that the only US wheat that most Brits will have encountered is Coors' Blue Moon - you might want to check out this monster thread on HBT including a recipe from Wayne1, who says he was brewer at Coors' brewpub at the Denver baseball stadium when Blue Moon was first brewed. He suggests :

50:40:10 pale malt:malted wheat:flaked oats (ie ordinary porridge oats) to an OG of 10.50-ish and some rice hulls to help it lauter (which is a bit of a problem unless you take it really slow or are BIABing).

Only hops are some Mittelfruh at 90 minutes for 17.5 IBU.

He's very insistent on a ratio of 3:1 of ground coriander to dry, ground sweet orange peel, with eg a generous tsp of coriander going in at 10 minutes and a third of a tsp of orange at 5 minutes in 5 US gal/19 litres. Much of the rest of the thread is debating the best source of orange peel....

going yo use SafeAle05 for the cleanness as to bring it out hops as an american wheat

question on the ground coriander and dry ornage peel as not used before; is the coriander simply the ground stuff you get in a small jar in the spice rack at ASDA or do you need whole corriander seeds crushed yourself? Also is there much difference between orange peel and Dried ground curacao orange peel as ive already got a bag of this ready to go

thanks

 

[Northern_Brewer]

to bring it out hops as an american wheat

If you want to taste hops, make an IPA - if you're calling it an American wheat then you're interested in the flavours of the wheat, orange and coriander so I wouldn't swamp it with hops. Not every beer has to taste of hops, and this is a good example of that.

is the coriander simply the ground stuff you get in a small jar in the spice rack at ASDA or do you need whole corriander seeds crushed yourself?

Yes but if I was going to the effort of making a beer, then I would always take 2 minutes to grind up whole seeds, the flavour will always be better than ground spice that's been sitting on a shelf staling with exposure to oxygen. Coriander has a lot of the same flavour compounds as hops. Also spices like that will always be cheaper at an Asian food shop if you have one handy.

is there much difference between orange peel and Dried ground curacao orange peel as ive already got a bag of this ready to go

Curaçao orange is a subspecies of bitter orange, so a close relative of the Seville oranges used in marmalade, and a sibling of the sweet orange. So it's similar but not the same - and as I said upthread, that monster thread on HBT spends much of its efforts trying to work out the exact right kind of orange to clone Blue Moon with, people get really fussy about it. But if you're not trying to clone a particular beer then I'd give it a go with the Curaçao orange and see what you think, then tweak it in subsequent brews depending on your taste.

 

[kimosabby]

If you want to taste hops, make an IPA - if you're calling it an American wheat then you're interested in the flavours of the wheat, orange and coriander so I wouldn't swamp it with hops. Not every beer has to taste of hops, and this is a good example of that.



Yes but if I was going to the effort of making a beer, then I would always take 2 minutes to grind up whole seeds, the flavour will always be better than ground spice that's been sitting on a shelf staling with exposure to oxygen. Coriander has a lot of the same flavour compounds as hops. Also spices like that will always be cheaper at an Asian food shop if you have one handy.



Curaçao orange is a subspecies of bitter orange, so a close relative of the Seville oranges used in marmalade, and a sibling of the sweet orange. So it's similar but not the same - and as I said upthread, that monster thread on HBT spends much of its efforts trying to work out the exact right kind of orange to clone Blue Moon with, people get really fussy about it. But if you're not trying to clone a particular beer then I'd give it a go with the Curaçao orange and see what you think, then tweak it in subsequent brews depending on your taste.

really helpful for that thanks;

I started reading teh Blue Moon thread and your right its a monster

 

[kimosabby]

If you want to taste hops, make an IPA - if you're calling it an American wheat then you're interested in the flavours of the wheat, orange and coriander so I wouldn't swamp it with hops. Not every beer has to taste of hops, and this is a good example of that.



Yes but if I was going to the effort of making a beer, then I would always take 2 minutes to grind up whole seeds, the flavour will always be better than ground spice that's been sitting on a shelf staling with exposure to oxygen. Coriander has a lot of the same flavour compounds as hops. Also spices like that will always be cheaper at an Asian food shop if you have one handy.



Curaçao orange is a subspecies of bitter orange, so a close relative of the Seville oranges used in marmalade, and a sibling of the sweet orange. So it's similar but not the same - and as I said upthread, that monster thread on HBT spends much of its efforts trying to work out the exact right kind of orange to clone Blue Moon with, people get really fussy about it. But if you're not trying to clone a particular beer then I'd give it a go with the Curaçao orange and see what you think, then tweak it in subsequent brews depending on your taste.

one other thing; as I've not used the coriander and ornage before 28grams seems alot for 23l. Is that what you read/used previosuly?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you think of coriander as similar to hops, then an ounce in the copper is about right - you definitely need more when adding to the boil than on the cold side. And I'd certainly back Wayne as having way more experience of this kind of thing than me, so if he says an ounce for your first one, I'd do an ounce.

But the real message from the monster thread is that ingredients, particularly orange, vary a lot, and the only way is to start somewhere in the right area and then tweak things up or down depending on what ingredients you have available (and personal taste), there's no One True Amount to add.