Acidulated malt and Philly Sour yeast

[Gggsss]

Hi All

I’m just about to stick on a Gose and am planning to use Philly Sour yeast for the first time.

Question I have is there an amount of acid malt that will be too excessive?

My first Gose I brewed I added around 20% acid malt to the grist and it turned out well (although could have been with it being even sharper/tarter). If I used the same amount with Philly Sour yeast would this result in too much ‘acid’ or will it be ok (with an idea that too low a ph may inhibit yeast activity and/or other negative elements). The reason I’m thinking it is ok is because after reading up on the yeast it only seems to produce moderate souring.

Not bothered with taking ph readings or water treatment, just a ballpark idea of the results. Will be around 25l with a kilo of acid malt (2kg Pilsner & 2kg wheat) and 2 x packs of Philly Sour.

I hope that all makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any advice…

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Google says 1-10%. 20% seems far too much.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hi All

I’m just about to stick on a Gose and am planning to use Philly Sour yeast for the first time.

Question I have is there an amount of acid malt that will be too excessive?

Err - any?

What exactly is your intention by using acid malt and Philly Sour together? Philly Sour on its own will get beer down to pH3.4-3.5 or so which is typical for goses, I suspect that all you will achieve by putting it in a wort with acid malt is to make the Philly Sour unhappy and not ferment properly.

The one thing to watch with Philly Sour is that the souring effect is quite sensitive to pitching rate, which is why some people have not had good results with repitching it as reusing a yeast cake means they are massively overpitching it. See this article and others on the same site :
https://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2021/02/12/diving-deep-in-to-philly-sour/

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@Northern_Brewer
That is a great resource you link to.
I got a good pH drop with philly and then used kveik which dropped pH a bit more. Kept it at 26 Celsius.
It cleared incredibly fast as well.

 

[Gggsss]

Google says 1-10%. 20% seems far too much.

Thanks for the reply.

As mentioned I used 20% before and was pleasant enough but underwhelmed with the level of sour/sharp/tartness (I had followed a recipe online).

 

[Gggsss]

NB - Thanks for the link, will look in to it.

Main reason I wanted to combine both the acid malt and the Philly Sour as individually they both only produce modest results (AM experience first hand and Philly Sour online research seems to suggest not overly sour). So the combination seemed the easiest way to achieve a more sour beer. But obviously didn’t know if one element would negate the other.

I’ll keep researching/reading

 

[GeorgieV]

NB - Thanks for the link, will look in to it.

Main reason I wanted to combine both the acid malt and the Philly Sour as individually they both only produce modest results (AM experience first hand and Philly Sour online research seems to suggest not overly sour). So the combination seemed the easiest way to achieve a more sour beer. But obviously didn’t know if one element would negate the other.

I’ll keep researching/reading

I used Philly Sour for my last brew - Berlinerweisse. It was actually very tart. I brewed it for my brother-in-law who is a big fan of sour beer and he really liked it. I can't drink it without a shot of fruit syrup. Too sour for me.
Regarding the combination with acid malt for getting lower pH in the final product, I'm not sure it matters really. What I read about the Philly Sour is that it adjusts the pH of the environment to its preferred level before it starts producing alcohol, so I think it will get you to the same pH level regardless of the acid malt. On the other hand, if you are not bothered with water chemistry, adding some acid malt can help improving your mash efficiency, so it will be beneficial. Anyway, I don't see any point in adding more than the usual.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Goses are more tart than sour - as I say, Philly Sour should be getting you down to pH 3.4-3.5, compare with this by Fal Allen in the journal of the Brewer's Association, summarising the book he wrote about gose :
http://onlinedigitalpublishing.com/...=html5&view=articleBrowser&article_id=3284227
The pH should fall between 3.2 and 3.6. Sourness should be low to medium-high, but should complement the overall beer.

Given the potential for possible fermentation problems, I honestly don't see why you would go near acid malt. Just let the Philly Sour do its thing and see how you like the result, then start tweaking.