Ace electric boilers?

[BeerCat]

Hi BeerCat

Just a thought...Have you selected the right sensor option in the PID options?....it's not always set to the K type.

I did adjust that option but the manual is wrong( At least the. Should read 21 not 20. I bet i am not the first to turn the air blue over that. Would of been the last thing i checked. All i have left to do is attach the heatsink and connect up the new pump when arrives later in the week. Cant wait to try it out. Thanks for your help mate. :thumb:

 

[Bigcol49]

Says 21 is for a cu50 and 20 is pt100 on here http://pmod79883.pic31.websiteonline.cn/upload/itc-100_manual_v1_1w57.pdf

Hi!
Glad that you've got it up and running. The wiring diagrams on that webpage are very iffy - please don't use them.
I'm using the diagram I linked to earlier.
Bad day today - hors de combat owing to a sicky bug :-(

 

[Fil]

Good to read its sorted..
for calibration check out the eti thermopens pdf manual iirc pages 16-18 detail and explain the close to 0c and close to 100C tests to perform with ice water and the steam off boiling water https://thermapen.co.uk/superfast-thermapen-3/1-classic-superfast-thermapen-3-thermometer.html (downloads tab for the manuals etc..)

 

[Jcdonnan]

Hop filter arrived today, looks decent for £11 from eBay, hopefully try it out this weekend

 

[Bigcol49]

Hop filter arrived today, looks decent for �£11 from eBay, hopefully try it out this weekend

Hi!
Still waiting for mine!

 

[BeerCat]

Finally got all the parts together i needed and yesterday brewed a lager. Perhaps i was over confident as it pretty much clogged immediately. The whole thing turned into a nightmare with me having to keep turning the pump off. The problem was that the water did not filter fast enough through the grain bed. Was 6kg Lager malt. I couldn't use the PID so i tried to do it manually. So much air in there caused a lot of problems. I tried stirring but that didn't help much. Maybe i didn't stir enough but there must of been a hell of a lot of pressure in there as it buckled the false bottom. That might actually make it better though. Easier drainage. I guess i should of stirred it either more or less or the grain could be the wrong crush. I don't have a mill. Next try will be a stout so i will put the flaked barley in first. Also this new pump is slightly more powerful than the solar one i had. Going to order another one as a spare.

 

[nigelnorris]

Buckled the false bottom? Yikes! I'd have thought the walls of the boiler itself would bend before that, which could turn out really unpleasant I guess.

 

[donchiquon]

Hi BC

I've been there - a PITA! My false bottom is still buckled around the bolts but it now serves to remind me each time to start the pump off really slowly.

I normally start with slow trickle for 5 mins and work up to 4l per min after about 20 mins. It's probably over cautious but works for me.

Before doughing in I also open the pump valves to let it prime for a few mins, then I tip the ace forward to get rid of any air that might still be lodged in the pipes.

Then I stir in the grain really well to get rid of any dry balls and air pockets that might form.

My last brew was a Resin clone with 7kg of grain. The recirculation worked without a hitch....but I've had a similar experience to you in getting there!!!

 

[BeerCat]

Last time after a good stir worked perfectly apart from my PID. Not sure whats going on with that but it no longer turns off. I did reconnect the wiring so i will have to check it again as must be an error. Weird but not unexpected. Also noticed how far out it reads compared to the thermometer dangling in the top. Was way over 70c and should be reading 67c. Its a real pita having to keep manually turning it on but works fine. Takes quite a while to drop 1c.
Been thinking an STC may be better to run this with a pot on the output to drop the voltage. Maybe a voltage meter as well and a better quality sensor just dangling in the mash. What are your thoughts on this? It occured to me the GF uses one so is a PID overkill?

 

[Fil]

A Pid should be better at preventing an overshoot of target temp than a simple on off controller, but if used with a thermocouple, switching to a class A or B PT100 would provide you with better accuracy and responsiveness to query.

a simple 2 point temperature callibration test using iced water for a close to 0c base and the surface of boiling water for a close to 100c base you can even google elevation and atmospheric pressure corrections Should indicate any bias in your probe, and as long as its out by the same measure at both ends of the range you can compensate with a sensor correction in your pid parameter list.

An autotune with a water load will also help by adjusting the control parameters close to your needs from the default settings.

However failure to switch off sounds dodgy?? it may be a simple ssr failure but should be easy to diagnose with a multi meter, rather than risk checking the a/c load simply test the pids ssr drive voltage switches on and off correctly.

 

[BeerCat]

A Pid should be better at preventing an overshoot of target temp than a simple on off controller, but if used with a thermocouple, switching to a class A or B PT100 would provide you with better accuracy and responsiveness to query.

a simple 2 point temperature callibration test using iced water for a close to 0c base and the surface of boiling water for a close to 100c base you can even google elevation and atmospheric pressure corrections Should indicate any bias in your probe, and as long as its out by the same measure at both ends of the range you can compensate with a sensor correction in your pid parameter list.

An autotune with a water load will also help by adjusting the control parameters close to your needs from the default settings.

However failure to switch off sounds dodgy?? it may be a simple ssr failure but should be easy to diagnose with a multi meter, rather than risk checking the a/c load simply test the pids ssr drive voltage switches on and off correctly.

Thanks Fil. I have managed to fix it, well almost. Must of connnected a wire round the wrong way and i fiddled about with the cold/hot settings and it now works but getting the occasional flash on the out LED when it should be off. Not happening often and only lasts a split second. The amp reading was 0 when it did it and after that was 65. It should be off. I am confused. I maybe swap the sensor for the one i got with it to see if the fault persists.

I have run the calibration again but there is not much to calibrate if you know what i mean.

 

[Fil]

If you havent ran an autotune yet it could help eliminate the odd flash on too.. when you consider these boxes generally control heating or cooling on an industrial scale where efficiency is crucial and a nominal overshoot over target could cost ££££ in fuel

the best analogy for a pid controller i know is to compare it against a mythical frog

now this frog when heading towards any target will hop half the distance with its first hop but every hop after will be half the distance of the last one.. A question posed is how long or how many hops will it take to get the frog to any target destination.

and the answer is never or infinity as it will always be the last distance it hopped away.. not a very realistic frog but thats how a tuned pid approaches getting you to your target temp, and maintain it, by heading towards it in reducing increments of power input as it approaches the target this way it shouldnt waste any energy getting there either.

Without an autotune run the pid is probably set to defaults which may be more applicable to 1000's of litres of water ??

SSRS can bleed some current when off but measured in milliamps afaik. 65A is probably enough draw to trip all the mcb breakers in your consumer unit attached to the mains power?? perhaps it was 0.65?? which is still quite high. 65ma 0.065A is probably more like it,
its only a pid issue if the DC drive current from the pid box is any positive voltage when it should be off or grounded?
..
bear in mind im not an electrician in any sense..

 

[EarwaxUK]

Hi, and sorry for interrupting this thread.
I've just got one of these boilers and I'm trying to calculate my boil off. I'm slightly disappointed to read here that the 900W element is not connected, especially as the ebay listing says it has 3 modes.
Has anyone been able to reconnect it? Is it worth doing? I figured mine was broken...

Also, am I being daft or is my thermostat broken? I know they're inaccurate but I figure the screen should at least light up. Mine is permanently off and I can't seem to turn it on.

 

[nigelnorris]

Hi, and sorry for interrupting this thread.
I've just got one of these boilers and I'm trying to calculate my boil off. I'm slightly disappointed to read here that the 900W element is not connected, especially as the ebay listing says it has 3 modes.
Has anyone been able to reconnect it? Is it worth doing? I figured mine was broken...

Also, am I being daft or is my thermostat broken? I know they're inaccurate but I figure the screen should at least light up. Mine is permanently off and I can't seem to turn it on.

The 900W element is disconnected in the older version, the one without the digital display. To the best of my knowledge no one has successfully reconnected it, or least if they have then they didn't post it here.

If you have the new version then it should all be hooked up and giving you the choice of three power levels, 900, 1600, 2500.

No idea about the thermostat. Not sure how many here have your version yet, not many, so not much discussion about that here so far.

 

[yeastinfection]

Hop filter arrived today, looks decent for �£11 from eBay, hopefully try it out this weekend

is it this one ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Homebrew-...880886?hash=item464dda9336:g:V9cAAOSwZJlXMuwT

 

[Bigcol49]

SSRs can bleed some current when off but measured in milliamps

Hi!
Thanks for that, Fil. I've got LED indicator lamps on my control panel, wired in to the sockets, intending them to come on when the SSR in switched on by the PID.
The lamps have a slight glow when the control panel is switched on. This worried me but now I understand why.
Colin

 

[nigelnorris]

is it this one ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Homebrew-...880886?hash=item464dda9336:g:V9cAAOSwZJlXMuwT

I have a similar one, and I can't say I'm impressed by it. Mine's 400 micron, and that seems to clog up, I don't think that water circulates through properly.

 

[Fil]

I have a similar one, and I can't say I'm impressed by it. Mine's 400 micron, and that seems to clog up, I don't think that water circulates through properly.

My original hop spider used a double walled tightly knitted nylon grain bag as a container, in order to stop it floating atop the brew i recirculated the boil back thru the bag no issues with hop utilisation at all even though i did have to throttle back the lil brown solar pump to 8v due to the nets resistance.. but its a far tighter weave than 400 micron ss mesh

ive since switched to Bridgwater brewing version of the SS 300 mesh basket filter for my flower additions, if you want rid of the smaller 400 mesh basket i might be interested for the odd pellet addition..

 

[BeerCat]

If you havent ran an autotune yet it could help eliminate the odd flash on too.. when you consider these boxes generally control heating or cooling on an industrial scale where efficiency is crucial and a nominal overshoot over target could cost ?£?£?£?£ in fuel

the best analogy for a pid controller i know is to compare it against a mythical frog

now this frog when heading towards any target will hop half the distance with its first hop but every hop after will be half the distance of the last one.. A question posed is how long or how many hops will it take to get the frog to any target destination.

and the answer is never or infinity as it will always be the last distance it hopped away.. not a very realistic frog but thats how a tuned pid approaches getting you to your target temp, and maintain it, by heading towards it in reducing increments of power input as it approaches the target this way it shouldnt waste any energy getting there either.

Without an autotune run the pid is probably set to defaults which may be more applicable to 1000's of litres of water ??

SSRS can bleed some current when off but measured in milliamps afaik. 65A is probably enough draw to trip all the mcb breakers in your consumer unit attached to the mains power?? perhaps it was 0.65?? which is still quite high. 65ma 0.065A is probably more like it,
its only a pid issue if the DC drive current from the pid box is any positive voltage when it should be off or grounded?
..
bear in mind im not an electrician in any sense..

Thanks Fil your explanation makes lots of sense. I had forgotten they vary the output so naturally would have to turn on and off. Makes me wonder though what sort of effect it might have on my ace boiler? The amp reading is on the Inkbird. If you press set it switches to output which i believe is a % of the total. So 65 would not be 65amp. Probably would of melted if i tried that.
The unit seems stable at the moment and will probably give it a run next time. Am i also right in thinking you said its possible to run a dc fan of the SSR. I would like to install a volt/amp meter as well if you have any idea how to wire one up?
I have an analogue one but couldn't get it to work. Possibly as i did not use a bridge. Anyway the video showing how to do its gone now.

Few things i noticed during my last brew were lots of bubbles in the pipework. Was not running very well before i added an malt. I had to squeeze the pipe to bleed it then it ran fine. I don't think this new pump is as powerful as my old brown and the flow is rather poor. Once it was running though worked perfectly without blocking. I used the Ireks Pilsner malt and was a decent crush. Often i get a ton of flour left on the top but not this time.
I will definitely be adding a voltage controller to an STC so i can drop the heat right down. I have been controlling my mash manually for the last few brews and its a right pita especially if you forget to turn it off. It takes quite a long while for the temps to drop so hopefully it will make it nice and stable.
Are you using pellets in your spider or leaf?

 

[nigelnorris]

My original hop spider used a double walled tightly knitted nylon grain bag as a container, in order to stop it floating atop the brew i recirculated the boil back thru the bag no issues with hop utilisation at all even though i did have to throttle back the lil brown solar pump to 8v due to the nets resistance.. but its a far tighter weave than 400 micron ss mesh

ive since switched to Bridgwater brewing version of the SS 300 mesh basket filter for my flower additions, if you want rid of the smaller 400 mesh basket i might be interested for the odd pellet addition..

Well your confidence has given me some hope, I'll persevere. If I do decide to sack it off you'll be the first to hear.