A quick question about sugar...

[BlackRegent]

I've been leafing through Graham Wheeler's Brew your own British Real Ale as I quite fancy doing a few more traditional British brews (nothing jingoistic about it - I just like a counterpoint to the smack in the face taste of a lot of modern styles).

Great book, but it raised a question in my own head about sugar use.

In the book a very large proportion of the recipes call for a "white sugar" addition at the boil stage, which GW explains is just table sugar. Yet in the ingredients section he remarks on the fact that commercial breweries use invert sugar because household sugar produces the infamous "tang". Although he says the "tang" effect is unproven, he says he 'can believe it'. He also bemoans brewing sugar as it's not clear what kind of sugar the product actually is.

Now, I always thought that brewing sugar was just dextrose, often referred to as corn sugar. Is GW's opinion of brewing sugar now out of date, or should we be checking what's in the brewing sugar we buy?

Also, if he recognises there may be something in the "tang" theory of using table sugar, why does he advise its use in most of the recipes?

It seems to me there are three solutions:

- just use table sugar per the recipe;
- use invert sugar; or
- use brewing sugar

My inclination is towards using brewing sugar in equal quantities to the recipe, but is there any reason why I shouldn't do this?

 

[trueblue]

I think you will find when the books were written the labeling of certain products were not as clear as today where the ingredients tend to be listed so you know what you are buying. With invert sugar he accepted it was not readily available to the home brewer so he adapted the recipes to use standard white sugar. Always remember white sugar is 100% fermentable where as other sugars may not be. Even though I do have some invert, I had to buy a 25kg block, if I brew his recipes I stick to white sugar.

 

[Drunkula]

Table sugar - sucrose - you can convert to invert by adding an acid and heating it for about 30 minutes. I did a grain beer with a kilo of sugar and didn't find any problem with it.

My theory about any possible sucrose bad taste is from the yeast having to make invertase to split it to glucose and fructose but I've only heard one mention of it ever and with zero detail. And somebody asked me when I added the sugar on brewday If it was at the start of the boil the acidity of the wort might have inverted it anyway.

One brewer on a podcast said they do have to adjust bitterness when using invert sugar because it's sweeter and has a twang of its own. I think it was a guest on a BeerSmith podcast.

The beer I did with the mad amount of sugar was like any pint you'd expect to get in a pub and this is the bit that still freaks me out:

All grain version 4.7kg of grain
Sugar version 2.1kg of grain + 1kg sugar

It still feels wrong but it wasn't just me drinking and liking it.

For that experiment to be valid I'd add the sugar after cooling to test the invertase effect.

 

[trueblue]

Golden syrup is partially inverted and makes a reasonable substitution for invert.

 

[BlackRegent]

... if I brew his recipes I stick to white sugar.

Did you find the end product was fine? The good thing about GW's recipes is that you can compare them to beers that are commercially available

 

[trueblue]

Did you find the end product was fine? The good thing about GW's recipes is that you can compare them to beers that are commercially available

Yes I started using his recipes from the first book in the 90's and have probable brewed around 70% of the pale ale/bitter recipes and a few of the other ones from the 3 main recipe book. Can't think of any one I did not like.

 

[terrym]

Golden syrup is partially inverted and makes a reasonable substitution for invert.

GS is fine in dark beers but it brings its own taste to light beers if used in quantity which you may or may not like.
As @Drunkula says its quite easy to make your own invert sugar in the kitchen, simply follow one of the many methods for making GS from table sugar you find on Youtube but omit the initial caramelisation stage.

 

[trueblue]

GS is fine in dark beers but it brings its own taste to light beers if used in quantity which you may or may not like.
As @Drunkula says its quite easy to make your own invert sugar in the kitchen, simply follow one of the many methods for making GS from table sugar you find on Youtube but omit the initial caramelisation stage.

Personally I'm OK for a while. As I stated earlier I bought a 25kg block, No.2 about a year ago so won't need to make any. I did make some several years back following Ron Pattinsons instructions half a cat | Rantings from this unholymess

 

[531Man]

Hi Drunkula,
You say,
"All grain version 4.7kg of grain
Sugar version 2.1kg of grain + 1kg sugar".
Please excuse my inexperience as I am trying to learn from the valuable information on this helpful site but it looks like in that version you have replaced 2.6kg malted grain by 1kg of sucrose.
That looks to me like an extraction efficiency of only 38.5% when I have read to expect, and experienced, around twice that at ~75%.
Or was the sucrose version a lower OG? (or was it 2kg sucrose added?).
Please help my poor befuddled brain on this puzzle.
Thanks and regards,
Robin.

 

[terrym]

Hi Drunkula,
You say,
"All grain version 4.7kg of grain
Sugar version 2.1kg of grain + 1kg sugar".
Please excuse my inexperience as I am trying to learn from the valuable information on this helpful site but it looks like in that version you have replaced 2.6kg malted grain by 1kg of sucrose.
That looks to me like an extraction efficiency of only 38.5% when I have read to expect, and experienced, around twice that at ~75%.
Or was the sucrose version a lower OG? (or was it 2kg sucrose added?).
Please help my poor befuddled brain on this puzzle.
Thanks and regards,
Robin.

Use a recipe builder to interchange ingredients, like this one
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculatorIn the example you quoted 4.7kg Maris Otter is approx equivalent to 2.9 kg MO plus 1 kg sucrose.

 

[531Man]

Thanks for that terrym,
"Use a recipe builder to interchange ingredients, like this one

In the example you quoted 4.7kg Maris Otter is approx equivalent to 2.9 kg MO plus 1 kg sucrose."

I'm still not totally totally clear though, as Drunkula showed using 2.1kg and your recipe builder example gives 2.9kg using 1kg sucrose.

Perhaps that was his point, that even though 2.6kg malt has been replaced by only 1kg sucrose (less than one would expect) that it still tasted so damn good!
Despite the lower OG and the much lower malt content (only 47%).
Regards,
Robin.

 

[terrym]

If its any help my crude rule of thumb is 1Kg base malt = 0.75kg LME = 0.65kg DME = 0.55kg table sugar.
Otherwise I cant speak for @Drunkula.

 

[Drunkula]

The measurements for my split were to reach the same ABV. With 79% efficiency and using BeerSmith they both came out at 4.8%.

1.040 OG for the sugar
1.051 OG for the grain

Sugar is totally fermentable and a kilo in 23 litres adds a whopping 2.7% and the grain only 2.1%.
The speciality grains for the batches remained the same just the base malt changed.

 

[531Man]

QUOTE="Drunkula
The measurements for my split were to reach the same ABV. With 79% efficiency and using BeerSmith they both came out at 4.8%.

1.040 OG for the sugar
1.051 OG for the grain

Sugar is totally fermentable and a kilo in 23 litres adds a whopping 2.7% and the grain only 2.1%.
The speciality grains for the batches remained the same just the base malt changed.

Thanks all,
I fall in now - it's just the sheer fermentability of sugar makes all the difference.
I am happy my thought was correct about the OG being lower with the sugar replacing malt grain, but the alcohol % ends up the same, so it ends up as a damn fine beer.
As that's the whole point of what we are doing here, that's a positive result .
Thanks for the educational conversation.
Regards,
Robin.