1 Barrel plant needs a HERM's

[bandit]

I have been looking around for a size guide to enable me to decide how big I should make the coil and stockpot combination to suit a 1 barrel brewery. I use a 200 litre tank as my mash tun. Any ideas or thoughts.

So far I was thinking of squeezing a 10m x 10mm coiled copper pipe in a 35 litre stock pot with a kettle element to keep it all up to temperature

 

[unclepumble]

I used a 2.2kw kettle element in a rims system on 160Ltr system worked a treat.

Cheers

shane

 

[bandit]

Thank you Shane. I reckon if I wrap the copper pipe round a cornie it will be 230mm diameter so out of 10m I reckon I should get about 14 coils. Maybe a 250mm high stockpot will do

 

[evanvine]

So far I was thinking of squeezing a 10m x 10mm coiled copper pipe in a 35 litre stock pot with a kettle element to keep it all up to temperature

35 litre not an option, very slow response time.
Think you would need 10M x 15mm, 2 elements and the min vol you can get away with.

 

[mixale]

35 litre not an option, very slow response time.
Think you would need 10M x 15mm, 2 elements and the min vol you can get away with.

Seconded.
This is the same reason why a HERMS coil in your HLT does not work.
Go for the smallest container possible to hold the hot water safely.
Probably 15lt maximum capacity and you'll need to get that thing heating up and close the temperature before you mash in.

 

[evanvine]

Just to illustrate, my HERMS capacity is 2 litres.

 

[pittsy]

hijacking this i'm looking into herms set up , i have a 25l mash tun and a 33l boiler pot and do 23l brews , i do set temp mashes so this seems a good move for me , so have i got this right = I get a pump and tube from my mash tun into a smaller pot ( you mentioned 2l , thought it would need to be bigger but great if not ) that turns into copper pipe coiled inside while a kettle element heats up water inside small pot that my wort travels through coil and back out to mash tun , with a probe in mash tun if set up with sct100 (i think) that will continue until set temp is reached ? do you have the small pot at boiling point or just hotter ? or can you just watch mash tun with a thermometer and stop pump when temp is reached , no sct100 needed ? thanks , Mark.

 

[evanvine]

hijacking this i'm looking into herms set up , i have a 25l mash tun and a 33l boiler pot and do 23l brews , i do set temp mashes so this seems a good move for me , so have i got this right = I get a pump and tube from my mash tun into a smaller pot ( you mentioned 2l , thought it would need to be bigger but great if not ) that turns into copper pipe coiled inside while a kettle element heats up water inside small pot that my wort travels through coil and back out to mash tun , with a probe in mash tun if set up with sct100 (i think) that will continue until set temp is reached ? do you have the small pot at boiling point or just hotter ? or can you just watch mash tun with a thermometer and stop pump when temp is reached , no sct100 needed ? thanks , Mark.

Can't be arsed to sort the quote out!
You need to use a PID and monitor the HERMS out before it goes back into the MT.
Do not monitor the MT temp to control the HERMS.......Large vol = large delay!

 

[Kevin Wood]

The thing is, your HERMS vessel only needs to be big enough to contain sufficient pipe to absorb the output of the element you put in it. Any larger, and it just responds more slowly.

My kettle HERMS here: http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=31373&start=20 has a 2.2kw element in it, holds 1.7L of water minus the amount displaced by the pipe and, at a typical mash temperature and pretty slow flow rate (Flojet beer pump just ticking over), it will take the full output of the element without getting anywhere near the boil (the kettle water only sits about 10-15 C above the HE output temperature with the element at 100% duty).

I do only use this with 25L brews, but my point is that if you know 2.2kW output is sufficient, you could just use the same as I have. Only if you need 2 elements will you need a bigger vessel (or perhaps 2 working together?). You'll only ever get as much heat as your element puts in.

If you feel you need more flow rate in a bigger system, just fit a controlled bypass around the heat exchanger, or use 15mm copper pipe instead of 8mm, or use 2 kettle HERMS in parallel. You won't need the flow rate to absorb all the heat, though.

Oh, and yes, sample the temperature at the output of the heat exchanger. I too tried it in the mash itself, and it could not be calmed!

 

[bandit]

Who is selling the kettle elements with a proper kettle plug/socket. Dont fancy wires hanging out the bottom of the HERM/Aparagus cannister

 

[PD]

http://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/spa ... -1096.html

 

[bandit]

would this combination be adequate for the control side

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PID-Digital-T ... 3f213458a7

 

[bandit]

mashing out????

Can I use the herms to raise the grain bed to 78Deg C before dropping it into the kettle. The would give me the clearest wort at the correct temp. I could then drop the sparge water in at 85 Deg C

 

[Kevin Wood]

Yes, although I tend to set my sparge liquor a little cooler, say 78-80 if I do this, as my thinking is that the grain will have reached a decent sparge temperature already.

What I actually tried on my last couple of brews is to run off my first runnings after using the HERMS to bring the temperature up to 78, then add some more liquor at 78, give it all a good stir, then allow the HERMS to recirc for a few minutes until the bed is settled and the wort clears, then start sparging, so a kid of mixture of batch and fly. It didn't give me any noticeable increase in efficiency over going straight into a fly sparge, so may not have been worth the effort.

 

[brewtim]

The HE in my system was made by the previous owner out of an ordinary sized saucepan with a hole cut in the bottom and a flat 3Kw kettle element silicone glued to the bottom of the pan, the wort copper pipework enters and exits through the saucepan lid, the copper has stainless cam disconnects into silicone tubing. The whole thing sits on the original kettle base and I'm guessing no more than 2 litres is needed (I've not measured it).

It's controlled by PID and SSR with the sensor in the exit copper pipework, the PID uses fuzzy logic to 'learn' how to control the temperature very accurately, the SSR ensures that switching is instant on and off (capable of multiple times a second in other systems), I'm not sure an STC1000 would be capable of controlling the HE output temp in the same way.

For a 23 litre batch, it takes 10 mins to go from 66c to 75c for mash out at a steady (probably 1.5l/min flow) rate, I'm not sure how you would calculate up from that to get a 1BB HE size.

 

[Springer]

For a 23 litre batch, it takes 10 mins to go from 66c to 75c for mash out at a steady (probably 1.5l/min flow) rate, I'm not sure how you would calculate up from that to get a 1BB HE size.

Spot on Tim. :thumb:
For a bigger brew the mash time will be ended before it gets to temp :lol: . I started a thread a while back "Is HERMs worth the effort", with my thought.
There is no need and will not work anyway for large brews, use some proper software, Beersmith for me, to calculate strike water details and you will hit mash temp without faff or expense.
S