Struggling to identify off flavour - Need help!

JRTurner1234 · Jul 3, 2016

Hi All,

Ive been brewing for about 1.5 years and have done 7 batches. I've done kit, extract and BIAB but in 6 out of 7 batches there has been a weird off flavour that I can't identify and cant fix.

I've tried the most common fixes and have run experiments changing different variable, but am now stuck.

I've ruled out:
- fermentation temperatures (I control with an STC-1000)
- under/over pitching (I've used yeast starters, properly calculated)
- Chlorine in the water (I've treated with Campden)
- Failure of sanitiser (I've tried star san and sodium percarbonate.
- My fermentation vessel (I've switched between my bucket and demi-johns)
- Green beer (The off flavour gets worse over time)

Is anyone will to be a volunteer to help me identify this weird flavour? I'll send beer through the post to anyone who is willing to help me.

Thanks,
Jamie

MyQul · Jul 3, 2016

First off, as best as you can, describe this weird off flavour. Specific off tastes can often be attributed to an indivdual cause

Dutto · Jul 3, 2016

I agree with MyQui, a description would be better.

As the strange flavour is common to all batches I would look at what is common to all batches and the only uncorrected element that you mention is the STC 1000.

Have you checked the accuracy of the reading? Mine came with the reading spot-on at 20 degrees but there is a facility on the STC1000 to feed in a correction if it is required ... :thumb:

... and pitching the yeast at too high a temperature was identified as a reason for a "grapefruit" off-taste to one of my brews. :doh:

Also, on the basis that it may affect the taste (although I have no evidence of this) I don't place the STC1000 sensor in the brew but attach it to the outside of the FV.

Looking forward to your description.

dad_of_jon · Jul 3, 2016

JRTurner1234 said:
Hi All,

Ive been brewing for about 1.5 years and have done 7 batches. I've done kit, extract and BIAB but in 6 out of 7 batches there has been a weird off flavour that I can't identify and cant fix.

I've tried the most common fixes and have run experiments changing different variable, but am now stuck.

I've ruled out:
- fermentation temperatures (I control with an STC-1000)
- under/over pitching (I've used yeast starters, properly calculated)
- Chlorine in the water (I've treated with Campden)
- Failure of sanitiser (I've tried star san and sodium percarbonate.
- My fermentation vessel (I've switched between my bucket and demi-johns)
- Green beer (The off flavour gets worse over time)

Is anyone will to be a volunteer to help me identify this weird flavour? I'll send beer through the post to anyone who is willing to help me.

Thanks,
Jamie

oxidation of beer - when transferring - that would get worse over time.

But if you want to send one over I'll give it a go for you.

Covrich · Jul 3, 2016

Do you siphon youe beer off? if so explain how you do it? there may be something in that (such as sucking the tube or letting air)

JRTurner1234 · Jul 5, 2016

Hi All,

Thanks for your responses! :)

MyQul said:
First off, as best as you can, describe this weird off flavour. Specific off tastes can often be attributed to an indivdual cause

The main reason that I am looking for tasting volunteers is that I am concerned that I am misidentifying the off flavour.

That aside, to me the beer has a plasticky/clove like off taste which is especially noticeable when you burp. This points to phenols which is why I tried treating the water with Campden and using different sterilising agents.

It could also be Styrene which would point to wild yeast contamination.

Dutto said:
I agree with MyQui, a description would be better.

As the strange flavour is common to all batches I would look at what is common to all batches and the only uncorrected element that you mention is the STC 1000.

Have you checked the accuracy of the reading? Mine came with the reading spot-on at 20 degrees but there is a facility on the STC1000 to feed in a correction if it is required ... :thumb:

... and pitching the yeast at too high a temperature was identified as a reason for a "grapefruit" off-taste to one of my brews.

Also, on the basis that it may affect the taste (although I have no evidence of this) I don't place the STC1000 sensor in the brew but attach it to the outside of the FV.

Looking forward to your description.

I have calibrated the STC-1000 and checked that the temperature is correct. I attach the sensor to the outside of the fermentation bucket, held in place with insulating foam.

Covrich said:
Do you siphon youe beer off? if so explain how you do it? there may be something in that (such as sucking the tube or letting air)

When fermentation has complete I siphon the beer into my priming bucket using an auto siphon. I then bulk prime using sugar that has been dissolved in boiling water. Then I rack to bottles from the priming bucket using a bottle wand.

dad_of_jon said:
oxidation of beer - when transferring - that would get worse over time.

But if you want to send one over I'll give it a go for you.

That would be appreciated. Please send me your address via private message and I get a bottle to you in the post.

Thanks,
Jamie

MyQul · Jul 5, 2016

Seeing as this is 6 out of 7 of you last brews have you considered some sort of (bacterial) infection as they can be very persistant.

The times ive had (wild yeast) infections I've 'pressed the nuclear botton' and got the bleach out. Any bits of kit you can or are willing to replace do so (cheapo things like syphons). Anything glass like bottles, oven em (40 mins in the oven @150C) . Bleach everthing else (140ml bleach/2L water for 30 mins soak). But make sure you thoroughly clean every thing first, taking apart any thing that can be took apart as bacteria can form a biofilm that it can hide under then re-grow

strange-steve · Jul 5, 2016

You mention a clove flavour, now assuming you aren't brewing hefeweizen or saison, this could indicate a bacterial infection.
Do as MyQul says, give everything a really good clean, soak in bleach solution, rinse with hot water, rinse again with sodium metabisulphite (campden) solution, then sanitise. This should clear any bacterial infection.

Sandimas · Jul 5, 2016

How long has some of the beer been in the bottles? If it's an infection it will chomp away at the non-fermentables producing vast amounts of CO2 (as well as a horrible taste), leading to gushers and even possibly bottle bombs - this will take a good few months. You'll certainly know if you have this type of infection- here's one of mine https://youtu.be/tML3k0sr308

As others have said, if you have this use the nuclear option. I had 6 consecutive infected brews and only managed to get rid of with witth bleach and a lot of boiled water, standard cleaning and sanitising didn't touch it.

chewie · Jul 5, 2016

One other thing, have you tried a brew using only bottled water? If the source is your tap water/pipe work no amount of cleaning will help.

JRTurner1234 · Jul 5, 2016

darrellm said:
How long has some of the beer been in the bottles? If it's an infection it will chomp away at the non-fermentables producing vast amounts of CO2 (as well as a horrible taste), leading to gushers and even possibly bottle bombs - this will take a good few months. You'll certainly know if you have this type of infection- here's one of mine https://youtu.be/tML3k0sr308

As others have said, if you have this use the nuclear option. I had 6 consecutive infected brews and only managed to get rid of with witth bleach and a lot of boiled water, standard cleaning and sanitising didn't touch it.

I've not had any gushers or bottle bombs (yet). The longest any of the bottles have been around is 3 months.

JRTurner1234 · Jul 5, 2016

chewie said:
One other thing, have you tried a brew using only bottled water? If the source is your tap water/pipe work no amount of cleaning will help.

I have not tried this yet, so will add this to my list of things to thing to try.

Dads_Ale · Jul 5, 2016

I found this in a craft brewing magazine on how to prevent phenolic (clove type) off taste:

Chlorinated brewing water is the enemy number one because chlorine reacts with yeast derived phenols to create chlorophenols, which the palate equates with licking an adhesive bandage. Switching to bottled water is an easy ensurance, as is avoiding chlorine based sanitizers such as bleach. Also take a close look at the yeast strains you're using because some are more phenolic than others.

In addition to using a cambden tablet I also boil my water for 15 mins prior to use.

I will be happy to give one of your beers a try. I have plenty of bottle packaging so if you pm me your address I will send you a bottle of Riwaka Gold and you can use the packing to return yours.

JRTurner1234 · Jul 6, 2016

In my lasy batch I treated all water with campden, so I'm beginning to suspect a wild yeast infection. However, I have had no gushers - is this possible?

JRTurner1234 · Jul 12, 2016

As suggested in another thread, I poured out one of the beers and let it go flat. I then took a hydrometer reading.

The gravity when bottled was .1012 - entirely in line with expectation
The gravity reading that I have just taken (after 2 months in bottles) is .1006

But no sign of a bottle bomb or over carbonation?!

Does anyone have any insight on this?

dad_of_jon · Jul 18, 2016

I bottled my last beer at 1.001 but i've bottled up to 1.019 so it depends on the fermenables and the yeast

dad_of_jon · Jul 24, 2016

Hi,

I've tasted the beer and can confirm a plasticy bandage aroma on opening , and it is just about detectable whilst drinking. If you burp afterwards its more concentrated, but it's still a very good beer, there was a little woodyness there but that would be down to the hops. I reckon more hops again would cover the plasticy off taste but perhaps try a different variety if you don't like woody:whistle:

As your brews are smaller scale ? (did I read or imagine that) just use bottled water, rinsing out with tap water from the sodium perc cleaning should be ok, I had big astringency problems when I used it not thoroughly rinsed - and your off taste is not that.

carbonation on the beer is fine, it did not gush.

I'd suggest...

if you use star san and bottled water then you'll have no chlorine issues and bacteria are zapped, so only wild yeast left in which case put the demi-john in an oven to kill all yeasts. When the demi-john has cooled put some foil on the opening to keep stuff out.

for your plastics, immerse in hot boiling water if they are food safe at those temperatures or replace them that would sort out the wild yeast (leave that till last)

(we've just had a new kettle and the tea/coffer made with boiled water from it tasted extremely plasticy for the first 20 brews or so) - your beer didn't have that taste thank goodness :grin:)

Now I have to say that was a good beer, so if you want to choose something in my drinking sig, i'll send you a bottle if return, I did worry if your brew was going to be undrinkable, but it most certainly was not : cheers:

hope this helps.

doj

JRTurner1234 · Jul 25, 2016

dad_of_jon said:
Hi,

I've tasted the beer and can confirm a plasticy bandage aroma on opening , and it is just about detectable whilst drinking. If you burp afterwards its more concentrated, but it's still a very good beer, there was a little woodyness there but that would be down to the hops. I reckon more hops again would cover the plasticy off taste but perhaps try a different variety if you don't like woody:whistle:

As your brews are smaller scale ? (did I read or imagine that) just use bottled water, rinsing out with tap water from the sodium perc cleaning should be ok, I had big astringency problems when I used it not thoroughly rinsed - and your off taste is not that.

carbonation on the beer is fine, it did not gush.

I'd suggest...

if you use star san and bottled water then you'll have no chlorine issues and bacteria are zapped, so only wild yeast left in which case put the demi-john in an oven to kill all yeasts. When the demi-john has cooled put some foil on the opening to keep stuff out.

for your plastics, immerse in hot boiling water if they are food safe at those temperatures or replace them that would sort out the wild yeast (leave that till last)

(we've just had a new kettle and the tea/coffer made with boiled water from it tasted extremely plasticy for the first 20 brews or so) - your beer didn't have that taste thank goodness :grin:)

Now I have to say that was a good beer, so if you want to choose something in my drinking sig, i'll send you a bottle if return, I did worry if your brew was going to be undrinkable, but it most certainly was not :

hope this helps.

doj

Hi DOJ,

Thanks for tasting my beer and providing useful feedback.

I'll take on board your suggestions for my next brew - I'm determined to fix this issue!!

I really wasn't expecting anything in return - but I'm certainly not going to turn down a beer! RIS-ky business sounds like fun :)

: cheers:

Cheers,
JRT

dad_of_jon · Jul 26, 2016

JRTurner1234 said:
Hi DOJ,

Thanks for tasting my beer and providing useful feedback.

I'll take on board your suggestions for my next brew - I'm determined to fix this issue!!

I really wasn't expecting anything in return - but I'm certainly not going to turn down a beer! RIS-ky business sounds like fun :)

:

Cheers,
JRT

pm me and i'll send you one.

Struggling to identify off flavour - Need help!

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