Killing 2 birds-one stone.

Firstly: hello from West Wales. I've been a frequent forum viewer for 2 years now and with a bit of navigation have learned an enormous amount from this forum so Thank you all. With guidance from here I've moved from kits, via extract to full grain (BIAB) over 20 brews. Many have been drinkable! So onto the second bird with which I would appreciate your advice.
I currently have an American Barley Wine (Greg Hughes recipe) in the FV. I have made it before-although that time I split the 20.5L wort after the boil and did 10L at 'full strength' with Saffbrew 33 and the other 10.5L (made up to 20L) as an APA with appropriate yeast. The OG of the ABW was 1094 (his target was 1105 @23L so my efficiency wasn't good (low volume and low gravity). The Saffbrew 33 brought it down to a stable 1028 over 16 days before bottling. ABV was 8.6%-well below target 10.9% but heck it was quite strong enough and was a fantastic beer. My best yet, great body, nicely bitter to balance the alcohol, not sweet and lovely hoppy taste from cascade/chinook. Mash temp was 65/66 degreeC
So with 2 friends roped in to share the proceeds I have repeated this time fermenting the whole lot as Barley wine.
Unfortunately I managed to mash this brew at too high a temperature. The temperature had dropped to 62degreeC after doughing the grain (10.5kg of grain took sometime and my 50L pot was pretty full with the grain and 37L water :-( ). I relit the burner and overshot significantly to 72degreeC. Spent the whole of the mash with the lid off and no insulation trying to lose heat. Did put the lid on eventually and left for a long mash whilst I did something else. 3 hours later temp was still 60 degreesC-that amount of grain really holds the heat. At the end of the boil I had 24L which was cooled in a cube. Racked to FV leaving protein break/turn off hops (which I had put into cube) behind. This left me with 23L @ 1090.
Used saffbrew 33 again but started it off with 1L starter (100g DME) for 36 hours as I was concerned that some people suggested pitching 2 sachets for such high gravity and the yeast might not cope. good aeration of the wort before pitching the yeast.

So to the point of my tale. Vigorous fermentation with airlock activity after about 18 hours. Fermentation room ambient temp around 18-20 degrees Nice krausen, not extreme. SG had dropped to 1038 at 7 days. Given a stir and moved to a slightly warmer place. 4 days later its 1037 if I kid myself (probably 1038). Trial jar is reasonably bitter, not that alcoholic tasting, big bodied and possibly a little cloying. Current ABV is about 6%.
Diagnosis? Lots of unfermentable sugars that the yeast cant ferment? Yeast reached its attenuation limit (only other experience with Saffbrew S33 was in the 10L batch)? I favour the former.
Solution: wait another week, accept how it is at that stage (probably the same?) and hope it tastes less sweet/cloying after secondary fermentation and maybe served chilled!
Or could I add a sugar solution which would increase the volume and thus reduce 'final SG' whilst boosting the ABV and making the beer 'thinner'. Would the yeast be able to deal with a decent volume of sugar at this stage?
If this is yeast failure then would adding a sachet of saffale US05 help as it is pretty alcohol tolerant and has good attenuation?
Apologies for the long post but I thought I'd give you all that facts rather than drip feeding over several posts :) Thanks for any opinions.
Richard
ps sorry first post-just previewed and its MASSIVE. Respect to anyone who can be bothered to see it through to the end.

Do you think your issue is too much long chain sugar? If that is the issue, research using amylase enzyme.

I wouldn't jump immediately to the above, it could be a stuck fermentation that needs a bit of help. A good stir to put the yeast back into suspension might fix it.

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Amylase_Starch_Enzyme_25g.html

Welcome to the forum. Where in west wales are you? Might be best to post your problem in the appropriate forum to get more exposure

Leon103 said:

Welcome to the forum. Where in west wales are you? Might be best to post your problem in the appropriate forum to get more exposure

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I'm in Pembrokeshire. Land of the long grey cloud this winter.

Wasn't sure which forum to choose. Maybe thread should be: Too high mash temp/stuck fermentation?
Intend to take another SG tomorrow but not hopeful.

North or south Pembs

HebridesRob said:

Do you think your issue is too much long chain sugar? If that is the issue, research using amylase enzyme.

I wouldn't jump immediately to the above, it could be a stuck fermentation that needs a bit of help. A good stir to put the yeast back into suspension might fix it.

http://www.the-home-brew-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Amylase_Starch_Enzyme_25g.html

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Thanks. Is this usually a wine problem? Agree it may be long chain sugars. Has anyone used this in a beer? My understanding was that its probably too late to break these down to fermentable sugars.

Leon103 said:

North or south Pembs

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Foothills of Preselis. Not sure what that counts as. Are you local?

I've not done it and I don't know if it will work. I knew it was possible to get amylase enzyme, that's why I suggested you do some research. Winemakers use it to get rid of starch haze, which isn't exactly what you hope for.

There are two Amylase enzymes: Alpha, which breaks starch down into complex sugars and Beta, which further breaks down complex sugars into simple sugars. I've no idea if both are in these products but I believe that Alpha-Amylase will break down sugars on it's own if given long enough.

Edit: I found this...
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/enzymes595.html

HebridesRob said:

I've not done it and I don't know if it will work. I knew it was possible to get amylase enzyme, that's why I suggested you do some research. Winemakers use it to get rid of starch haze, which isn't exactly what you hope for.

There are two Amylase enzymes: Alpha, which breaks starch down into complex sugars and Beta, which further breaks down complex sugars into simple sugars. I've no idea if both are in these products but I believe that Alpha-Amylase will break down sugars on it's own if given long enough.

Edit: I found this...
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/enzymes595.html

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Thanks. This looks very interesting. Looks like I need a product with beta amylase in it preferably. Will search it out.

BrewCurious said:

Foothills of Preselis. Not sure what that counts as. Are you local?

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Near Aberystwyth

BrewCurious said:

Thanks. This looks very interesting. Looks like I need a product with beta amylase in it preferably. Will search it out.

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I've no experience of this but I was also reading that article yesterday and whilst it suggests enzyme additions should work, I think you will need to watch out that you don't end up fermenting out everything in there, making rocket fuel with no body.

The homebrew company sell this product http://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/wln4100-ultraferm-10ml-single-vial-p-2419.html but their recommended dosage is 1.5-2.5ml per barrel. I guess you would need the merest whiff of it for a smaller brew.

I think you would then need to monitor the fermentation carefully after that as I guess you would want to leave some body in the the beer. When you get near your preferred final gravity you could rack it off the yeast and cold crash it to halt the fermentation. I don't know how you would stop it restarting again in the bottle when it is conditioning though.

I should imagine, in this beer, the yeast would hit it's alcohol tolerance level before the beer dried out.

Simonh82 said:

I've no experience of this but I was also reading that article yesterday and whilst it suggests enzyme additions should work, I think you will need to watch out that you don't end up fermenting out everything in there, making rocket fuel with no body.

The homebrew company sell this product http://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/wln4100-ultraferm-10ml-single-vial-p-2419.html but their recommended dosage is 1.5-2.5ml per barrel. I guess you would need the merest whiff of it for a smaller brew.

I think you would then need to monitor the fermentation carefully after that as I guess you would want to leave some body in the the beer. When you get near your preferred final gravity you could rack it off the yeast and cold crash it to halt the fermentation. I don't know how you would stop it restarting again in the bottle when it is conditioning though.

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Thanks for your efforts. Interesting suggestions. The above would I suspect run the risk of too much conversion and lose the Barley Wine body. I dont seem to be able to find Beta amylase which is what I would require (except in industrial quantities) as I believe the more commonly available products are mainly alpha amylase.
I might yet go for some dilution of volume with addition of simple fermentables (brewing sugar) to retain ABV around 7%. Should be less cloying and a bit lighter in body.? Was thinking of 2-3L sugar solution. Not sure how much sugar to use. Need to find a calculator. 3L water would drop the SG to 1033.

The other suggestion which I think was in that old article was mashing a small amount of grain at 60oC to extract the beta amylase and add it directly to the fermenter. This has an obvious risk of infection but as you are already at 7% alcohol that may kill off the bugs.

Simonh82 said:

The other suggestion which I think was in that old article was mashing a small amount of grain at 60oC to extract the beta amylase and add it directly to the fermenter. This has an obvious risk of infection but as you are already at 7% alcohol that may kill off the bugs.

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that did seem attractive but I was worried about infection as the mash would be at a low temp (to preserve beta amylase). Had forgotten the FV contents are now at a good alcohol level to reduce risk. Might try to see if there are any other articles on this technique out there (that one was 1995 )

Thanks for replies. Here is what I did. Went for the easiest solution first (though not expecting success) and after 15 days and with SG at 1038 pitched some pre hydrated Safale US05. My expectations were fulfilled. Nothing after over 24 hours. Decided on dilution effect for the 'excess body' (unfermentables) and some brewing sugar for the low ABV (for this style). Added 1kg brewing sugar with 3L of water to now give 26L volume. Got some yeast activity within 24 hours with a mini krausen formed and airlock activity. 4 days later the SG of the 26L has dropped to 1030. Trial jar tastes OK, certainly not as heavy bodied. This SG reading is now stable and I have put it in the cold to get some of the yeast to drop out as it was pretty cloudy.
Not sure where I'm at with the ABV. I believe 1kg of brewing sugar would add 2% ABV to 23L when fully fermented? So I guess in 26L it will add around 1.77%. The original FV was sitting at around 6.8%. So approximately 7.8% i think for the 26L. After all this maths lets hope it tastes OK :)