Guiness and Cider

I've been partial to pint made of half cider and half Guiness since I was about 20 - which was (OMG) 35 years ago .

Having recently returned to homebrewing, one of my intended projects is a Stout. My inspiration is from the 134 posts on the Coopers Stout kit and I have all the gear to kick this off soon. No doubt in a few weeks or monthe time I can mix some with somecheap supermarket cider. Not that it's likely to make it 1978 again. :lol:

Anyway, the purpose of this thread is slightly different. Does anyone know anyone who has tried to make a Stout and Cider brew in one bucket? My first thought was, say a Stout kit, plus a Cider kit, made to 5 gallons - the Cider kit playing the part of the sugar / malt extract / brew enhancer of the familiar approaches.

I read on here a suggestion that a stout type yeast would do fine for fermenting cider, but are there reasons why the above idea is bio-chemically unsound?

Other approches might include replacing some water from a stout type wort with apple juice, but since a lot of UK cider and commercial Apple Juice is from overseas concentrate, would this be any different to the stout / cider kit combination anyway?

There is some time before I will attempt this - and attempt it I clearly will - slightly obsessive personality and all that - so does anyone have any suggestions, ideas, objections or advice, please

Thanks, all :drink:

One way to find out, but remember with two kits, you will have 40 pints of flavour in 20, so it might be strong on the pallete. Personally I'd do two brews, then mix them in the glass

Hmm, you could be right, Antony, , but just being silly may not stay the curious hand of enterprise :twisted:

Make a stout and a turbo cider ( apple juice ) mix in the glass until you get the taste right them mix in a bigger batch if it works. Go for a gallon of tc if I don't work you will have 2 brews that are worth drinking

Use apple juice from concentrate and lower the sugar.
I've no idea how it will turn out though although I would be interested to here how you go on. :thumb:

My first thought is that pure turbo cider takes a long time to 'age' and become good cider. Just be prepared to leave it to age I guess. :wha:

Keep us posted! :thumb:

I was in my local Lidl last night and on the spur of the moment picked up 12 x 1 litres of Apple Juice made from concentrate (10.4g sugar per litre) at 65p each.

Thinking of adding the AJ as part of a wort with one stout kit to 25 litres with maybe a small amount of sugar to make up to 5 - 5.5% ABV.

Any ideas on how long such a brew might need to become drinkable?
I'm thinking of fermenting for a week, racking to a SFV for 1-2 wks with 50g sugar to keep the air out and then bottling.

This is slightly outside of my current experience, but I do remember making Apple wine in 5 gallon batches that took years before it became anything but sludge.

Rolfster said:

My first thought is that pure turbo cider takes a long time to 'age' and become good cider. Just be prepared to leave it to age I guess. :wha:

Keep us posted! :thumb:

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If you are mixing it with a strong flavoured stout I doubt it will make much difference. you would have only got it served with something like woodpecker or strongbow in a pub 35 yrs ago, hardly a west country cider even then :lol: :lol: :lol:

graysalchemy said:

If you are mixing it with a strong flavoured stout I doubt it will make much difference. you would have only got it served with something like woodpecker or strongbow in a pub 35 yrs ago, hardly a west country cider even then :lol: :lol: :lol:

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I think what you are telling me is that the pursuit of a genuine West Country taste is scarcely going to be achieved by chucking it in with some loutish looking brew. And that after any amount of time the net result is likely to be a bit dire.

The objective is not so much perfection as experimentation and any advice on avoiding total folly and disaster is well recieved.So thanks

Maybe reducing the AJ content might be an idea - with sugar from the concentrate replaced by DME. A cider brewer from the New Forest I once spoke to (as I was buying his wares, of course) said in accusatory voice that "commercial" "cider" was now made with only rather diluted AJ these days.

Actually I am think what you are doing isn't that mad. Take a look at my tag I make elderberry stout, due to my love of a velvet ***** :whistle: . So actually adding some apple juice instead of some of the water to the kit may not be a bad idea.

However carton apple juice is lacking in tannin making it insipid and flavourless, so i would be inclined to add tannin but then that goes against brewing beer as we avoid extracting tanins in the mash. :wha: :wha: But then my elderberries in my elderberry stout are packed full of tannin. :hmm: :hmm:

I am confused now. :wha: :wha:

Mind you, you could always do as you suggested and if it seems to lack bite you could always add tannin afterwards and perhaps some malic acid. :hmm: :hmm:.

I don't suppose that has helped you. :grin:

graysalchemy said:

Actually I am think what you are doing isn't that mad. Take a look at my tag I make elderberry stout, due to my love of a velvet ***** :whistle: . So actually adding some apple juice instead of some of the water to the kit may not be a bad idea.

However carton apple juice is lacking in tannin making it insipid and flavourless, so i would be inclined to add tannin but then that goes against brewing beer as we avoid extracting tanins in the mash. :wha: :wha: But then my elderberries in my elderberry stout are packed full of tannin. :hmm: :hmm:

I am confused now. :wha: :wha:

Mind you, you could always do as you suggested and if it seems to lack bite you could always add tannin afterwards and perhaps some malic acid. :hmm: :hmm:.

I don't suppose that has helped you. :grin:

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On the contrary, Graysalchemy, I think your comments are welcome and the advice about the tannin useful - I was unaware of this.

BTW my experience of elderberry winemaking is that elderberries are paked with tannin - up to 5 years to mellow - as well as being tricky little blighters to handle. Remember using a fork to separate them from the stalks. Elderberry stout sounds like a labour of love.

Progress on the Project:

The control brew is nearing end of primary fermentation. This is a Coopers Stout, with 1kg of dark DME plus sugar - 200g unrefined and 500g white sugar to 25 Liters.
Have brewed the Stout along the lines of the Coopers Lager kits I have become fond of and which came with the Starter Kit. For those intersted I followed the "Lawn mower Lager" instructions plus 500g of extra sugar.

Said Coopers Stout has been 7 days in the Primary and is still fermenting. The reading is around 1010 at the moment, which seems like very good progress given the weather this week.
Had a taste of the hydrometer sample and OMG did it taste smooth

The purpose of the control brew is to test the "one fermentation" hypothesis against the sensible knowledge that mixing in the glass is probably the best bet.

To be fair, I think at this stage, the stout and apple juice is going to have to have something a bit special to be worth shouting about.

I mean, how can a beer as dark and imposing taste so brilliant still obviously bubbling away?

The plan for the G & C is now farly clear. The Stout kit as sent is a Muntons Irish Stout kit at 1.8kg. I have 12x1 Litres of AJ from the supermarket and intend to make a "long" brew at ~ 27 Litres, including some white sugar, if required, to get to what i think might give 5.0 to 5.5 ABV.

The kit for the G & C includes amongst its stated attributes the suggestion that it might be ready to drink after 10 (ten) days. Laughed a bit about this - and then i tasted the Coopers batch after 7. Hey - ho you learn something every day.

Will keep you informed on progress on this venture.

And thanks for your interest :drink:

OK yeast was pitched today at 1047 on the wort described above - including a pot of 3 teabag tea. The hydrometer sample tasted much like how it should in a few weeks time, so fingers crossed for a result.

Incidentally I bottled the Cooper Stout today and couldn't resist the temptation to try a bit with some supermarket cider. It was great. So it might be that the most useful information on the page is to make two separate brews and mix in the glass , but hey-ho - the voyage of discovery commences and I will let those interested know how it goes.

The wort kicked off like a volcano and I was glad of the Coopers Collar on the FV.

Daughter at home says that the whole house has since smelled of "farts".

Is H2S (hydrogen disulphide - rotten eggs / fart gas) a likely by product? Perhaps it depends on the apples used for the concentrte and where they grew.

Anyway, progress seems brisk and my current feeling is that it should be left at least 2 weeks in the primary FV. Bouquet of fart never sold many pints in any of the pubs I used to frequent.

Slid said:

Daughter at home says that the whole house has since smelled of "farts".

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:lol: That's it. Blame the beer :lol: :sick:

Slid said:

The wort kicked off like a volcano and I was glad of the Coopers Collar on the FV.

Daughter at home says that the whole house has since smelled of "farts".

Is H2S (hydrogen disulphide - rotten eggs / fart gas) a likely by product? Perhaps it depends on the apples used for the concentrte and where they grew.

Anyway, progress seems brisk and my current feeling is that it should be left at least 2 weeks in the primary FV. Bouquet of fart never sold many pints in any of the pubs I used to frequent.

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sulphides of various sorts are not uncommon, especially if the ferment is a bit warm. They clear up before bottling time

Thanks for the advice :thumb:

I took a gravity reading at 1008 today after 6 days.
Tasted rather "rough and ready" acidic and with a bit of an aftertaste.
I expect turbo cider is always a bit coarse for some time, though.

Bottled yesterday at SG 1005, which comes out around 6% ABV. Cleared nicely, as far as I can tell, over the last week.

Tasted about half as nasty as it did a week ago, which must be a good sign. :lol:

I can see this being quite drinkable in the new year, although with hindsight, I have possibly made an error by combining a stout which would be almost ready by now with a turbo cider which will need some time.

I tried a "taster" bottle the other day and it was quite drinkable, but nothing like the Coopers Stout I brewed and mix with cheap supermarket cider.

Got hopes for this now

Just watch your bottles of cider? I've only made cider "the long way" i.e. from scratted apples but I'm sure it usually ferments down to 1000? (maybe my memory is a bit hazy on this...anyone feel free to correct me on this.)
Anyway, hope I'm wrong. :