Has the classic Best Bitter lost its flavour?

see my previous thread - they can't afford good cellarship......

B&P...Brunning and Price,get that in a pub near me. Privately owned chain pub/eateries.

bobukbrewer said:

see my previous thread - they can't afford good cellarship......

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Now here's a sad tale from my sole trader innkeeping days. A fellow licensee from a nearby village was getting on and he had a good trade but lots of physical work in the cellar. So he advertised for a cellarman. So chancer turned up with the gift of the gab swore he knew years of cellar work - difficult back then before mobile phone were everywhere, to check on bona fides. So what happened was, that he was put on the books and did some fumbling around for ca 10 days - then suddenly he cried out from the cellar he needed an ambulance cos he strained his back handling casks. Well he was hospitalised and went on statutory sick pay which the Landlord had to pay. He also had to get in some agency help (another bad story of theft and dirty tricks). This malingerer couldnt be sacked while on sick for 6 months and then it was over, but he took the landlord to the tribunal for unfair dismissal cos he hadnt been given the obligatory health and safety training for handling barrels and didnt have the right equipment and didnt keep a HnS book. Tribunal awarded £2000 compensation. The Landlord was made bankrupt by this.

So was there then or is there now such a thing as a time served cellar man?

In the same vein (hope this isnt boring) but when I first took on my 250 year old draymans roadside halt (when horse drawn was how freight goods were delivered around. The back had a stables for fresh horses to exchange. I looked into all the business and accounting side and became aware of so many mine traps and how many scamsters were calling on me to sell and take money off me etc. I could find a shed load of pamphlet for employees, know your right etc BUT absolutely nothing on how to be an EMPLOYER. I travelled 30 mile to an office of the Dept of Trade and Industry that offered free consultation for new businesses start ups. Bottom line (when I discovered this a feed trough for a Quango 100's set up during the early Blair years) It was a total waste of time and BS, the only advice available was from a little one page pamphlet from ACAS (Arbitration and Conciliation Service) thats explained Employers Liabilities and Obligations - this was truly scary as per above.

I resolved never to officially employ anyone on the books. I started to dig around and find ways in which someone could become a self employed help etc (fore runner back then of what is now a common Gig man)

Bottom line, to try and do things legitimately was a total nightmare and I had to spend 2 hours/day getting very creative with deals and stopping everyone else trying to take money off me. I adopted the mindset where every time I thought to spend £1 I asked myself when I would get my money back and at what profit.
I still only made ca £1/hr But I was always in the black and paid my bills on time and as a result got special deals from wholesaler as I was the only customer ever did that.

I've an armfull of tales from Innkeeping, it was a lot of fun but I was well supported from the village which made it a labour of love. I doubt I could get away with my tricks today - way too much supervision and regulation. I never cheated my customers and they knew it. After 5 years my own health was suffering and one of my customers stepped in and bought my pub - thats a badge of honour. They went on to triple the sales as a personable poplar married couple.

Now whilst perusing another thread I was reminded of something surprising. Above I made reference to Asahi and its reputation as a fine brewer of Japanese style lagers. Then I recalled Beer Lao from Vientiane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beerlao - its made from fragrant rice and malt xtract imported from Belgium. That explains everything as its street ahead of beer made in Thailand in terms of quality. Those well known brews are reputed to be preserved against a 33C weather using formaldehyde. This is known to affect memory after a while. Topers on Singha will doubtless attest to loss of faculties especially as the abv can vary 6-8% abv locally with laiser faire QC. Local expats dont do that stuff only dumb tourists.

Clint said:

Yes..definitely regional. Bitter as I find,is sometimes labelled as "amber" as its not fashionable to drink bitter. I wonder why drinking pish is fashionable?

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I think the fashion is a huge thing. "Bitter" congers up images of old men in flat caps drinking beer from old dimple glasses on their way home from the coal mine. People don't want that because that's what old codgers drink.

But give them a nice pint of "amber ale" in a tall glass and they love it. Breweries know this, so all but a few have renamed they bitters to something else.

A lot of people also associate the name "bitter" with the highly hopped really-bitter APAs etc and go "I don't like the really bitter beers" (meaning APA etc) even though a "bitter" isn't actually that bitter

I can understand why breweries are less likely to use the name bitter. It only really made sense when they were selling milds as an alternative to it. As agentgonzo says, a lot of them are not actually that bitter but it puts people off. I find it sad that mild is not more common, but that's a different story...

I'm not sure young people have much conotations about bitter being an old fashioned drink. It's been so long since it was 'mainstream' I'm not sure they really know what to expect. **** lager seems to be more common among older clientele of pubs, as it probably is for all ages groups.

Brought up to appreciate Burton ale at the Dog & Parrot Newcastle with brewery under the floor. Fine memories,,,,,

Did my beer apprenticeship in SE London c1965-1968. Frequented The Kings Arms in Eltham. Courage house. Sunday lunchtime ritual, meet grandad with dad and consume 2 pints of bitter whilst arguing about Charlton Athletic's performance the day before. Never tasted a bitter as good since.

Edit: think that's called terroirs

The few local micro-breweries I know have little interest in "traditional" bitters.
Everything is about craft beers now and "brown beer" has much less interest.

There are few breweries making money. Yet Brewdog and others, are making pots of it.
Certainly, the ones that haven't sold their soul to the devil.
Say what you like about them, but I'd rather drink that, than the pish the Heineken and the like throw out.

Stu said:

There are few breweries making money. Yet Brewdog and others, are making pots of it.

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Brewdog lost £30.5m pretax in 2022. (and their 2023 accounts are 3 months overdue which isn't normally a good sign)

bobukbrewer said:

The supply chain is also implicated, I believe EI contract with Stonegate

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Ei (formerly Enterprise Inns) were bought by Stonegate a few weeks before lockdown.

dlowe1992 said:

The B&P Original however, absolutely singing. Glorious. And I’ve had this before and it’s been average.
Think it just goes to show a good bitter is all about the dying art of cellarship..

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Cellarmanship is part of it, but also with brown bitter a lot of it is simply throughput. I've had a beer that was singing at 7pm when the pub was thronged, and then when I went back at 10pm both pub and beer were dead.

robint said:

btw just look at the share price over the years to see how their fortunes are decimated with many of them technically insolvent, mortgaged by 3x the value of their assets (no domestic householder would get away with that)

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75% loan-to-value is pretty normal for domestic mortgages. Not many publicly listed these days though, including:

Clint said:

B&P...Brunning and Price,get that in a pub near me. Privately owned chain pub/eateries.

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Which was part of a public company that also includes Wagamama and formerly Chiquito and Frankie & Bennies, but was bought by American private equity at Christmas. For those that don't know B&P, it's a chain of pub-themed restaurants, often in really nice buildings, aimed at the Waitrose market.

dlowe1992 said:

I went into a local pub near me the other day and was mighty impressed to see three ‘Best Bitters’.
Three Tuns Best, TT Boltmaker and B&P Original (brewed by Brightside in Manchester I believe).
The Boltmaker was fairly average (perhaps unsurprising given I’m nowhere near the brewery).
The B&P Original however, absolutely singing. Glorious. And I’ve had this before and it’s been average.
Think it just goes to show a good bitter is all about the dying art of cellarship..

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Brightside do excellent cask ales, from their brewery in Radcliffe near Bury. I drink their beers often, but haven't come across B&P Original.

beer is poor because pub is poor because too few customers because beer is poor

clib said:

Brightside do excellent cask ales, from their brewery in Radcliffe near Bury. I drink their beers often, but haven't come across B&P Original.

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I'll be around Bury for work at some point in January - good cause to find somewhere to sample! :)

Brewsmith in Bolton, Pictish in Rochdale, J. W. Lees in Middleton, too. Plus the tram into the northern quarter of Manchester wouldn't be a bad option.

Sadfield said:

Brewsmith in Bolton, Pictish in Rochdale, J. W. Lees in Middleton, too. Plus the tram into the northern quarter of Manchester wouldn't be a bad option.

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Uh oh, fast turning into an over nighter!

dlowe1992 said:

I'll be around Bury for work at some point in January - good cause to find somewhere to sample! :)

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The Spoons in Bury is a fantastic old theatre, and Spoons sells Brightside beers often.